#foswiki 2012-02-10,Fri

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WhoWhatWhen
jeskmornin [04:32]
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***gac410 has left [05:01]
Rich_MorinWhere might I find a list of the specific transformations that <verbatim> performs (eg, '<' -> '&lt;')? [05:08]
SvenDowideitRich_Morin, i'm sad to say, in the docco you're about to write :/
SvenDowideit runs for the hills
[05:14]
Rich_Morinuhuh [05:16]
pharveyRich_Morin: Foswiki::Render::verbatimCallback indicates that we convert \t into => ' ', and then does Foswiki::entityEncode [05:25]
FoswikiBothttp://trunk.foswiki.org/System/PerlDoc?module=Foswiki::Render [ (Foswiki login) PerlDoc ] [05:25]
pharveyRich_Morin: so, in answer to your question, that would be tab characters PLUS control characters PLUS "%&'*<=>@[_| [05:27]
Rich_Morinright - think I'll worry about [<&>] for now
unless I can find a JS function that handles them all for me.
Speaking of JS, have you folks looked at D3.js ?
http://mbostock.github.com/d3/ex/
[05:27]
foswiki_irc0good evening! I'm trying to find about import functionalities for foswiki so we can use it on research project, does anyone know where I can find reference about it? I found few plugins and one for excel but I was ordering if there was any page about this feature! [05:32]
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pharveyRich_Morin, yes
actually, we have a developer doing stuff with thejit.org - purely because D3 doesn't play well with IEs.
TemiV should be publishing it in the next week or two
You can't see any of the advanced features which decorate the tree with character/matrix data from the wiki, as it's private, but we hope to have something public soonish.
[05:50]
foswiki_irc0hmm [05:52]
pharveyfoswiki_irc0, I've tried to gather some info about this, I'd love to sponsor a google refine connector for Foswiki... that would be my dream tool for import/export :)
presently we just hack away at terrible perl scripts from CSV
[05:53]
foswiki_irc7hi [05:54]
foswiki_irc0pharvey, so we can actually export to csv? is there any page that I can read more about it? Im fine with this I love foswiki :) [05:54]
pharveyoh, export is easy - that's just a matter of writing a proper SEARCH
import is the hard part that I struggle with a lot :)
[05:55]
foswiki_irc0hmmm [05:55]
pharveybut that's usually because I'm cleaning & normalising years old data at the same time
let me see if I can dig up an CSV export SEARCH
[05:55]
foswiki_irc0pharvey, thank you very much! Im just trying to provide this to someone in charge of the research project so i can get a foswiki set up for us there and I can hack around :) [05:56]
pharveywell, I started http://foswiki.org/Support/Faq42 - I'd love some collaboration to help improve the import situation
amazingly, I can't find a good demonstration of CSV export
I'll write it up as an BestPracticeTip
[05:57]
foswiki_irc0oh I found this page before, so any of them give any idea about the csv?
I couldn't figure out any from those links :(
[05:58]
pharveyno, I'm afraid I started this topic with the hope that others would help me fill it out [05:59]
foswiki_irc0I tried searching on a old foswiki build i have on admin panel but had no luck either
oh :/
but it is possible right? I mean
there is a feature hidden somewhere at the admin page that it will export the whole stuff?
[05:59]
pharveyso, you urgently require a SEARCH to produce CSV? I could rip out the one we're using in our wiki, if that helps, it just might not be easy to re-use [05:59]
foswiki_irc0yes, anything is fine. I don't need to export anything now but I must provide some half guarantee that foswiki can import something to the person in charge, otherwise they will go with another wiki
and I really wanted them to use foswiki
[06:00]
pharveyno, Foswiki doesn't have a "dump to (CSV|XML)" feature, out-of-the-box. We do a lot of Templates which export XML, but that's usually for data consumers who want a very specific XML format [06:00]
foswiki_irc7i have huge problems in understanding many things in the documentation [06:00]
foswiki_irc0=/ [06:00]
foswiki_irc7i'am normally "very" technical experienced [06:01]
foswiki_irc0pharvey, well give me anything I can fool the person in charge and I can manually import the html, css and content and create the pages if needed
:P
thats what I always did with my stuff anyway
[06:01]
pharveyokay, I'll do that now, it's friday afternoon and I'm already distracted :P [06:01]
foswiki_irc0pharvey, do what? :o [06:02]
foswiki_irc7is there any more detailed documentation around, which tries more detailed what to do to realize things, maybe even with pictures?
i have to read every sentence 10 times and still some are unclear to me
it's like a programmers handbook :(
[06:02]
pharveyfoswiki_irc7: we love to hear about feedback/first impressions, and we know the documentation needs more practical examples; some of this is partly done but not yet shipped with Foswiki (Eg. http://foswiki.org/Development/WriteAQueryCookbook ) - can you be more specific?
foswiki_irc0, creating an export-to-CSV demo
[06:03]
foswiki_irc0pharvey, that would be veeeeeery nice! I really appreciate it [06:03]
foswiki_irc7at the moment i'am trying to understand how customizing the "view" can be done with reading around http://foswiki.org/System/PatternSkinCustomization and stuff [06:04]
foswiki_irc0foswiki_irc7, are you talking about doing this: http://dev.moodle.ufba.br/foswiki/bin/view/ProjetoEAD
with your foswiki?
[06:05]
foswiki_irc7no, i'am talking about the documentation overall [06:05]
foswiki_irc0oh terceiro is around :) he's from the same uni as I am lol
hmm
z
[06:05]
CarlosAndradez [06:06]
foswiki_irc7most part of it requires deep knowledge of other parts of it, so it's hard to get in [06:06]
CarlosAndradebetter lol
foswiki_irc7, I understand what you mean unfortunately :(
[06:06]
foswiki_irc7i'am concerned about Perl, pushing good projects programmed with Perl... [06:07]
pharveyCarlosAndrade, I'm supposed to be adding a "csv of this grid" mode for JQGridPlugin, too (I don't know if you've seen it, here's an example: http://trin.org.au/Mangroves/Bibliography/ ) - but my queue is 8 miles high [06:08]
foswiki_irc7good documentation, not just for very skilled people
most users are not experienced and have not the ambition of programmers
[06:08]
pharveysadly, Foswiki is mostly driven by programmer-types, we would love to get some help from non-programmers [06:09]
foswiki_irc7how could such one help? [06:10]
CarlosAndradepharvey, wow thats a very nice template! [06:12]
foswiki_irc7in fact it is :)
how about a step by step way to create such one :)
i think every good project needs at some time a very experienced programmer or user which is willing to write a good documention for beginners to get an advanced user, maybe with hellp from people without knowledge reading it
[06:14]
Rich_MorinFoswiki_irc7: Is it critical that the data be imported into the wiki? You might want to consider doing an INCLUDE from a non-wiki server. Might be simpler and more dynamic... [06:15]
CarlosAndradeRich_Morin, I guess I was the one asking it
I think the project owner just want some sort of guarantee that he can import and export stuff
[06:15]
Rich_Morinsorry [06:15]
CarlosAndradeit is a big research project
so he prob just don't want to go thru moving manually stuff later on
but yeah well I guess we would just add stuff directly on the wiki
[06:16]
Rich_MorinWell, in software the answer is generally that things are possible: Beware of the Turing tar-pit in which everything is possible but nothing of interest is easy.
My question is whether it makes sense to store the data in the wiki, rather than (say) in a DBMS, etc.
I mean, you want to be able to edit annotations, but you don't want to have to edit data...
[06:16]
CarlosAndradehmm that is true [06:19]
Rich_MorinSo, keep the data somewhere that allows processing and rendering, then include the results into the appropriate wiki page(s). [06:19]
CarlosAndradestill Im not skilled with foswiki or dmbs or anything else I only know the basics so :s I can suggest that to this person hopefully he knows how to do that
as far as I know, we would use a css, include on an html, which is going be used as a template so that text is apart from html and thats it, go on on CreateThisPage
just what newbies know how to browse around actually
[06:19]
foswiki_irc7how would guys create such a cool table like in the example pharvey (http://wiki.trin.org.au/Mangroves/Bibliography/) ?
is that possible with wysiwyg editor or with tml?
[06:20]
CarlosAndradeRich_Morin, but I appreciate the suggestion, thank you :) [06:22]
Rich_Morinfoswiki_irc7: WYSIWYG techniques run out of steam first (ie, What You See is All You Get); TML is better, but still limited. For full formatting flexibility, you may need HTML, CSS, etc. Fortunately, TW and FW allow that.
CarlosAndrade: You might want to ask your contact how the data is currently being stored. If it's already in a DBMS, all you need is a server such as a Rails app.
[06:23]
EnriqueCadalsofoswiki_irc7 see http://wiki.trin.org.au/Mangroves/Bibliography/?raw=debug [06:24]
Rich_MorinOr, for a totally different approach, it's possible for a page to define JS that does queries to other data sources, processes the results, and displays them. I'm headed that direction for handling SPARQL queries.
That lets you use Ember.js, D3.js, CoffeeScript, etc.
See http://cfcl.com/twiki/bin/view/Projects/SPARQLy/GUIs/Test_1c and http://cfcl.com/twiki/bin/view/Projects/SPARQLy/GUIs/Test_1c?raw=on fro early gropings...
[06:26]
pharveyCarlosAndrade: http://foswiki.org/Support/BestPracticeTip27 - this example depends on FlexFormPlugin
foswiki_irc7: it uses http://foswiki.org/Extensions/JQGridPlugin written by MichaelDaum, I am working with another Foswiki developer to turn this into a generally re-usable bibliography tool, it mostly works but depends on some beta (unreleased) plugins, SemanticLinksPlugin & BibtexFormfieldsPlugin, the code is at http://trac.foswiki.org/browser/trunk/BibtexFormfieldPlugin
[06:29]
FoswikiBot[ BibtexFormfieldPlugin in trunk – Foswiki ] [06:33]
foswiki_irc7pharvey: ok, so very advanced, and not recommended for beginners i guess [06:34]
pharveyFoswiki is very powerful, but the amazing things we can do with it, aren't easy for a beginner [06:35]
CarlosAndradepharvey, thank you very much I really appreciate it [06:36]
pharveyCarlosAndrade: I agree with Rich_Morin, use the right tool for the job - apart from Foswiki, we also use drupal, confluence, and obscure things written in ruby+rails, no to mention a bazillion different access databases, spreadsheets, filemaker things... :) [06:37]
EnriqueCadalsopharvey: I believe you are wrong there, you developers are too good, are going too fast and common users are everyday more far away of your work. I believe you have lost contact with user base, and are too centered in development, forgetting for instance, documentation. IMHO. [06:38]
CarlosAndradex_x [06:38]
pharveyin our case though, we are shifting a lot of stuff out of SQL databases, and into the wiki, but we can only really afford to do that because I'm full-time allocated to supporting these kinds of data migration & wiki maintenance projects. [06:38]
CarlosAndradepharvey, you know all those things you mentioned are like dark magic for me [06:38]
Rich_MorinIf your project has funding, you might want to consider bringing in some help to get you started. [06:39]
CarlosAndradepharvey, I only know a little about foswiki and I love how I can do simple stuff after it is settled, my personal wiki for adding stuff from daily hack does the trick
Rick_Morin, that is a possibility
[06:39]
pharveyEnriqueCadalso, I agree with you, sadly [06:39]
EnriqueCadalsoWrite documentation for dummies is not as funny as developing but there is a moment it is mandatory, otherwise is hard to get fresh user. [06:39]
foswiki_irc7exactly [06:40]
Rich_MorinThe problem is that TW and FW are very capable beasts, with corresponding learning curves. Simple things are easy; complex things are possible, but someone has to learn (or already know) the tricks... [06:41]
pharveyEnriqueCadalso, I have tried to do my part by writing many FAQ and BestPractice topics, I tried to clean up our System doc for Foswiki 1.1.0 release, I encourage our "core" devs to document their wiki patterns that they find obvious.. [06:41]
Rich_MorinFWIW, a few hundred more tutorial pages should be available RSN. [06:43]
pharveyw00t :) [06:43]
foswiki_irc7cant the project afford one guy with deep knowledge but with only few programming skills which would be the perfect guy to document all things?
i would do, but i miss the knowledge :)
[06:50]
Rich_MorinNonetheless, _someone_ has to read the pages, understand them, and then solve the problem(s) at hand. For example, I'm currently studying CoffeeScript, Ember.js, D3.js, SPARQL, etc. There's lots of docs, but the learning curve is still substantial. [06:50]
pharveyRich_Morin, SPARQL is fun - I'm working on some linked data stuff which could have used sparql, but cheated and use JSON apis instead. Working towards doing an RDF export, RDF seems even more contentious than XML.
er, contentious = more scope for disagreement between parties
[06:50]
Rich_Morin"afford"? AFAIK, FW has no budget of its own; everything is done by volunteers or as a spin-off of funded projects.
I use Turtle, myself. FYI, JSON-LD is pretty slick.
[06:50]
pharveyEnriqueCadalso: I'd love to see a blog post or foswiki-discuss email or Brainstorming topic with your thoughts on where to start getting back in touch with users [06:50]
foswiki_irc7i think there are other ways to realize the afford [06:50]
Rich_MorinI use it as a path from harvested data to loadable Turtle. [06:50]
foswiki_irc7teach one guy until he can document everything ;) [06:50]
pharvey[17:48] EnriqueCadalso: I'd love to see a blog post or foswiki-discuss email or Brainstorming topic with your thoughts on where to start getting back in touch with users [06:51]
CarlosAndradei usually document the stuff I learn on the most stupid way, it usually saves me time when my mates are interested rather than explaining them, still I bet all the core developers here can't afford doing that probably for time constraints
I usually forget what I do fast so it is worth for me on the long run
[06:51]
Rich_MorinGood documentation takes a combination of technical writing skills and domain knowledge. I'm a technical writer and editor, but not skilled at (say) FW scripting. So, I'd have to work with an expert (mostly editing and word-smithing). But, in any case, the learning curve is still going to be a problem for anyone who wants to create applications. [06:51]
CarlosAndradeeven if no one ever read what I do, I will at a certain point in the future [06:51]
pharveyfoswiki_irc7, if you are volunteering, we always try to help as much as we can on IRC, but if we had better docs, we would probably get fewer distressed IRC users [06:52]
CarlosAndradeeither way Im happy just to have foswiki around
xD
I got used to it and I complain if people try to use other wiki other than foswiki on my stuff rofl
[06:52]
Rich_MorinA while back, I ran across a quote to the effect that the new "automated programming systems" sould soon remove the need for programmers. It was talking about a precursor to Fortran...
owell; off to bed. later, all...
[06:53]
pharveyIf I see myself answering the same question a few times, or I come across a little pattern I think others might useful, I usually try to make it an FAQ or BestPractice. What we are missing is something in between our reference material and those recipes.. that needs proper writing efforts.
g'night Rich_Morin
gotta run
[06:54]
CarlosAndradethis might sound stupid but
I installed foswiki on my mac and I can't find the log in button..
where did you guys move it from the previous release?
[07:03]
***card.freenode.net sets mode: +o gmc [07:07]
CarlosAndradethe .DMG for mac foswiki has issues with the login screen as well it is not working [07:08]
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OliverKrueger sets mode: +oooo tsnfoo CDot1 Lynnwood terceiro
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PeterSvendsenHi all, is it possible by using %SEARCH{" to set the colour to be field value dependend? e.g. if there is a field in the dataform named Colour and if it said red then it was displayed in red colour and if it said green then it was green? [10:33]
foswiki_irc7hi im trying to get compare revision add on working but it comes up with error in configure that HTML::Tree is not installed [10:34]
CDot1PeterSvendsen: colour of what?
<span style="color:%IF{"Colour='green'" then="green" else="brown"}%">is this what you mean?</span>
foswiki_irc7: dare I say it.... did you try installing HTML::Tree?
[10:39]
PeterSvendsenCDot as an example..... I have a dataform where I enter CarId and CarColour.. and the data...... CarID: 1, CarColour: Green, CarID: 2, CarColour: Green, CarID: 3, CarColour: Red.... then I create a search.... and I would like all with CarColour: green to be displayed in the search result with green colour and all the red with red colour......
CDot.. it meight be what I look for.... where to put <span style="color:%IF{"Colour='green'" then="green" else="brown"}%">? Infront of the search?
[10:43]
CDot1 when I enter <span style="color:%IF{"Colour='green'" then="green" else="brown"}%"> and then the search function %SEARCH{.........}% </span> then it is only displayed as "> on the screen... [10:57]
CDot1CDot1 has no idea what PeterSvendsen is trying to do, then [10:57]
PeterSvendsenCDot1: Damn :( I think you are on the right track.... just me who dont know how to set it up...
It could as an example also be a search function for a car rental.... and a search of all the cars.. and if they was in the garage then they would be listed in green while they will be listed in red if they are not in the garage...
and I use dataforms to set the state of the car..... :)
[10:59]
CDot1PeterSvendsen: ok, i understand. You just need to embed the <span into the format= art of the %SEARCH, right?
%SEARCH{"expression" format="<span style="color:$percentIF{$quotColour='green'$quot then=$quotgreen$quot....... etc
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MichaelDaumWikiRingBot, seen Oliver [11:43]
WikiRingBotWikiRingBot has last seen OliverKrueger 10 Feb 2012 - 09:52 GMT on #foswiki [11:43]
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PeterSvendsenHi CDot helped me to get a search result in diffent colours dependend on a variable in the search result..... but I can not get it to work.....
I have done as he describe %SEARCH{"expression" format="<span style="color:$percentIF{$quotColour='green'$quot then=$quotgreen$quot"> |*CarId* | *In garage*|.... but it doesnt work I only get this on the screen <span style= <span style= <span style= <span style= <span style= <span style=
I have no idea how to figure out the right way to do it... anybody have an idea?
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I have created a question.. maybe the description is better there http://foswiki.org/Support/Question1034 [12:36]
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AlexanderSthey there...i just got a problem during installation of some plugins... i get an error during file upload if i upload .css or .js files...
type text/plain is forbidden...
could there be any reason within foswiki? or is it about apache settings?
[16:48]
CDotAlexanderSt: Foswiki does have a filter on the legal file types for attachment, but that's the only filter I can think of
and text/plain is *not* one of the filtered types.
[17:00]
AlexanderStCDot... i think it´s because of the apache config. Our customer has a kind of strange apache configuration... [17:05]
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CDotFoswikiBot: seeb gac410
FoswikiBot: seen gac410
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FoswikiBotCDot: gac410 was last seen in #foswiki 14 hours 16 mins ago leaving the channel. [19:18]
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GithubBot[foswiki] foswiki pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/nP5APQ
[foswiki/master] Item11512: Add md5 keys for remaining topics. - CrawfordCurrie
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FoswikiBothttp://foswiki.org/Tasks/Item11512 [ Item11512: Ensure all topics in System pass ] [20:03]

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