#foswiki 2012-03-01,Thu

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gac410howdy pharvey [00:06]
pharveyhi [00:06]
.... (idle for 15mn)
SvenDowideitok, I have a fix for saveTopicText 1.1.5 - running the tests atm
what a waste - i could have just fixed it yesterday morning :/
[00:21]
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pharveyCPAN:Variable::Magic [01:00]
GithubBot[foswiki] foswiki pushed 3 new commits to Release01x01: http://git.io/1UPVmg
[foswiki/Release01x01] Item11586: unit test that passes on 1.0.10 - SvenDowideit
[foswiki/Release01x01] Item11586: adjust the unit test for 1.1 - where we keep the FILEATTACHMENT - SvenDowideit
[foswiki/Release01x01] Item11586: saveTopicText is supposed to import legacy embedded META form into a topic - so this can be used to import from an old wiki into a new (potentially non-file based) foswiki - SvenDowideit
[01:02]
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FoswikiBothttp://foswiki.org/Tasks/Item11586 [ Item11586: saveTopicText with embedded META:TOPICINFO doubles up. ] [01:03]
GithubBot[foswiki] foswiki pushed 3 new commits to master: http://git.io/EQSKRw
[foswiki/master] Item11586: this is the unit test that passes on 1.0.10 I'm not entirely convinced that its correct wrt backwards compatibility with the original Func::saveTopicText and readTopicText, but its a begining - SvenDowideit
[foswiki/master] Item11586: adjust the unit test for 1.1 - where we keep the FILEATTACHMENT - SvenDowideit
[foswiki/master] Item11586: saveTopicText is supposed to import legacy embedded META form into a topic - so this can be used to import from an old wiki into a new (potentially non-file based) foswiki - SvenDowideit
[01:17]
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gac410Foswiki Home/WebHome has html issues - SafeWikiPlugin gets pretty unhappy. And the layout gets corrupted. [01:21]
GithubBot[foswiki] foswiki pushed 1 new commit to Release01x01: http://git.io/pGPfkg
[foswiki/Release01x01] Item11563: Clean up checker a bit - GeorgeClark
[01:32]
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FoswikiBothttp://foswiki.org/Tasks/Item11563 [01:33]
GithubBot[foswiki] foswiki pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/ye9hSg
[foswiki/master] Item11563: Clean up checker a bit - GeorgeClark
[01:33]
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gac410SvenDowideit: about Item11285. I've opened a FeatureProposal - to try to sort through the complaints and organize what steps need to be done to make the Blog web happy to the blogger crowd. [01:42]
FoswikiBothttp://foswiki.org/Tasks/Item11285 [ Item11285: Set up blog web ] [01:42]
SvenDowideitgac410, yup, and i commented
but i think you succeeded in bringing up the central point for me
what micha is talking about is the marketing blog
what I want is to have a community microblog that might grow into being a marketing blog
but that it not its focus
[01:42]
gac410I believe they can be the same thing over time. yes indeed. [01:43]
SvenDowideitwhereas micha seems fully insistent that we can have only one blog
so _maybe_ the politic middle ground, is to rename the web to 'coffeebreak'
[01:44]
gac410My "outside" impression (as I don't blog) is that there is lots of gnashing of teeth and no effort to actually solve the issue. Some of his points are very valid .. So how do we get from here to there. [01:44]
SvenDowideitwatercooler
or whatever
y, thats why my respons on the topic is so 'angry'
whereas i re-write it on the feature req several times
[01:44]
gac410There is clearly progress. Arthur is doing good work. We just need to get some of the emotion out of it (And that's a real riot coming from me :D) [01:46]
SvenDowideitthe (now single) person insisting that we can't have a foswiki based blog until foswiki is a perfect blog platform probly should not prevent the community from doing something [01:46]
gac410I think the AntiWikiSpam plugin could be enabled - the whitelist changes I added a year will help. That addresses (maybe) one of the objections. [01:52]
SvenDowideityup - though i'm not that sure that I care about anonymous comment
_that_ is a reason - i wonder if it also does rego spam (i suspect it might)
[01:54]
gac410I was wondering about that myself - not sure what happens if it throws an error during the registration [01:56]
.... (idle for 18mn)
SvenDowideitargh!!!
so in changing saevTopicText to do what it actually should, I've made it horrendously slow for large topics?
ah, that one is 14941 lines long, and yes, itgoslooooooow
%META:TOPICINFO{author="SvenDowideit" date="1043799660" format="1.0" version="1.1"}%
[02:14]
gac410just wait till you hit oned 300,000+ lies
lines
[02:15]
SvenDowideithum. why do we have date="somethng unintellegble"
gac410, are they even editable?
[02:15]
gac410I think so - That was an issue someone else ran into recently.
Save was timing out - due to SetVariablePlugin iirc
[02:16]
SvenDowideitomp. so the parse embedded text is fast
it _is_ the meta->save call
[02:18]
gac410rcs? [02:19]
SvenDowideitstepping into it :/ [02:19]
gac410try rcsLite just for fun [02:19]
pharveyalso, would we entertain the possibility of disqus & friends for anon comments? [02:20]
SvenDowideitpharvey, no
http://foswiki.org/Development/MakeOfficialFoswikiBlogOnFoswiki
short form is - I was silly to explore making f.o/Blg into our marketing blog, and i retract that.
I am building a Watercooler using Arthur's simpler and more core-ish Blog platform
which gets refined into a micro communications tool for the community
if I >focus< on that goal of mine, then it can be used by those that want a different focussed tool to feed content into whatever they use
i do wish i was awake when arthur is around tho :/
[02:20]
gac410TopicUserMapper has a $users->removeUser which removes user from .htpasswd.
gac410 wonders - if save fails, can I just call removeUser
[02:25]
SvenDowideititsastart :)
ohgod
in RcsLiteHandler->ci ...
SvenDowideit didn't realise he's been using rcslite
but this is why its not ready.
there's _one_ line that goes boom....
my $delta = _diff( $lNew, $lOld );
where boom in this case, is 100% cpu on one core, and takes more than many minutes (i've never let it run to completion)
and this is only 150,000 lines
or _simple_ text
rcs wrap is slow too - 5s or so
but useable
[02:25]
pharveyWhy is gedit so terribly slow these days? >:( [02:31]
SvenDowideitit is?
SvenDowideit uses it lots
[02:31]
pharveyare you on testing? [02:32]
SvenDowideiti think yes [02:32]
pharveyI'm using XFCE, so perhaps it relies on something gnome-tastic to make it less sucky
it's slow on files with outrageously long lines
[02:32]
SvenDowideitah, no, i use gnome on here
and awesome on the notebook
aha :p
[02:33]
pharveyperhaps it has a crappy word-wrap algo
but it isn't wrapping at all, so that can't be it
[02:33]
gac410Registration is uuuuugly ... Mapper adds password and updates WikiUsers. Register saves UserTopic. removeUser does not update WikiUsers. :P So the best I can get without changing order of events is a stale user in WikiUsers, but password and topic are clean.
gac410 head explodes
TopicUserMapping.pm creates a UserTopic using copyFrom the template. AND UI::Register.pm also saves the UserTopic.
[02:45]
pharveygac410: improvement is improvement [02:49]
gac410gac410 is afraid to touch this.
*why* is the user topic created twice.
[02:49]
SvenDowideitgac410, we all are
is it created twice?
someone - i think you stoped us shipping a WikiUsers topic
so instead (and i like this) it does a copyFrom
after that, we are not creating, we're writing a new entry only
[02:50]
gac410Ah. I thought the code was creating the USER topic, not WikiUsers. Goes to look again. [02:51]
pharveypharvey figured out a new way to crash vim [02:51]
SvenDowideitbut its plausible that the same happens to initialise a user topic
there _is_ something weird there now
[02:51]
gac410Ah... no I was reading wrong. As you point out. Mapper creates WikiUsers Register creates TheUser [02:52]
SvenDowideitthe problem is that when i redid Usermapper stuff, i also was too scared to touch rego
and so rego is actually still topic mapper specific
we should think about a no-user topic mapper to drive improvement
where Main.SvenDowideit either does not exist, or is a pseudo-topic that shows a generated dashboard
[02:52]
gac410gac410 just wants AntiWikiSpam plugin to not leave behind SpamDroppings
So simple fix to Register - Catch the oops and call removeUser ... that works. 'cept removeUser doesn't remove the mapping.
[02:54]
pharveySvenDowideit: did you ever find a JS-tidy [02:55]
SvenDowideitpharvey, no
gac410, call that a bug
as removeUser should clean up
[02:55]
gac410It doesn't even clean the cache. Has a smell - so user exists in the cache. [02:56]
SvenDowideitby god the caches should die
SvenDowideit falls over in a heap
i have a 3 deep set of foreaches
in the inner one, I use a goto to exit 2 layers
but the next time round, the inner foreach doesn't start again, it continues to the next elemt
[02:56]
gac410Take a deep breath... you could always be working on SpreadsheetPlugin laddered if to the heavens. or better yet, the prefs hash / hierarchy. [02:58]
SvenDowideitclearly, the lesson is 'dont do that' but argh :) [02:58]
foswiki_irc8Hi all - please go gentle on me - I'm a foswiki Newb, and not the strongest Linux Admin skills, next-to-zero web development skills. But loving foswiki!
The problem I have is with password resets... they work ok - but the user get's an error page as follows;
<nop><h1><a name="Foswiki_Installation_Error"></a> Foswiki Installation Error </h1> Template 'alertsnohtml' not found. <p></p>
How can I go about finding and fixing the prob?
[03:03]
gac410that is unusual - what release of foswiki? [03:07]
foswiki_irc8Foswiki-1.1.3 [03:08]
dj_segfaultfoswiki_irc8: I don't see any files or directories with that name. Could that possibly be a theme in the jquery config? [03:08]
pharveypharvey notes there's an oopsalertsnohtml.tmpl, but no alertsnohtml.tmpl [03:08]
SvenDowideitpharvey, did you see the smoothing selenium perl bog post? [03:10]
pharveyme read blogs? pfft [03:10]
gac410foswiki_irc8: has it always been that way? [03:10]
pharveygac410: are you in UI::Passwords right now? Is it possible the code there is calling the wrong .tmpl def?
it seems to try to use alertsnohtml, but Foswiki only ships with oopsalertsnohtml
[03:10]
gac410I've never seen password reset fail like that - I've used reset pretty regularly in other testing. [03:11]
foswiki_irc8It's very possible it's calling the wrong .tmpl - how can I check? The rest of the error says "<nop><h1><a name="Foswiki_Installation_Error"></a> Foswiki Installation Error </h1> Template 'alertsnohtml' not found. <p></p> Check your configuration settings for {TemplateDir} and {TemplatePath}" [03:12]
gac410if template directory was not right, I suspect nothign woudl be working. [03:13]
dj_segfaultAs an experiment can you copy oopsalertsnohtml to alertsnohtml? [03:13]
gac410Ah.. hang on.
How are they doing a password reset?
There is an old deprecated resetPassword script that should never be used
[03:13]
pharveynever mind: Foswiki::inlineAlert automatically prepends 'oops' . $template, so it really should be trying to load oopsalertsnohtml.tmpl [03:15]
gac410yeah... and never mind on resetpasswd - that is what is used. I'm confusing reset with something else.
so foswiki_irc8 in your foswiki/templates directory, is there a file oopsalertsnohtml.tmpl
[03:16]
foswiki_irc8Yes indeed - /var/lib/foswiki/templates/oopsalertsnohtml.tmpl
But no altertsnohtml.tmpl - should I just copy?
[03:17]
gac410permissions okay - readable by the web server / foswiki?
no. as pharvey said, system prepends the oops
although maybe it's worth a try.
[03:17]
dj_segfaultcan you ls -al /var/lib/foswiki/templates/oopsalertsnohtml.tmpl [03:18]
gac410copy it to a file without the oops prefix. otheriwse I'd expect the error to say oopsalertsnothml not found. [03:19]
pharveyalso: are you sure the reset works okay? It seems as if that template is used to display errors in resetting/changing passwords.. [03:19]
foswiki_irc8Yes, it works fine, as have done it myself several times to test...
-rw-r--r-- 1 www-data www-data 113 2011-04-17 06:29 /var/lib/foswiki/templates/oopsalertsnohtml.tmpl
However, could permissions for this be the problem....
[03:20]
gac410no - 644 rw r r looks fine [03:20]
foswiki_irc8-rw-r--r-- 1 root root 419 2011-10-18 18:38 messages.approval.tmpl [03:20]
dj_segfaultOk, permissions are cool. Wait, what distro are you running? Does Apache run as www-data? I guess you would see a lot of other problems if that were not the case. [03:20]
gac410well it's world readable, so that ought to be okay. [03:21]
foswiki_irc8There are others too which are root [03:21]
dj_segfaultThat's not good. Nothing should be owned by root under there AFAIK
I doubt that's your problem though
[03:22]
foswiki_irc8OK, there are several similar which are the ones I edited aaaaages ok. No harm in changing from owner from root to www-data? [03:23]
gac410no - after maintenance on foswik.org, I usually do a chown -r www:wwwadmin (or whatever it uses) to clean up permissions. [03:23]
dj_segfaultIt's too bad /bin/configure doesn't have a file perms check page [03:24]
gac410It does. [03:24]
dj_segfaultOh? [03:24]
gac410It does perm checks of the data and pub directories.
Those are the critical ones since foswiki needs write permission.
[03:25]
dj_segfaultAh, OK. [03:25]
gac410foswiki_irc8: What mapper and password manager are you using? TopicUserMapping and HtPasswdUser ? [03:26]
foswiki_irc8Fixed up permissions - still error. Do I need to restart apache for this to take effect though? [03:32]
gac410no [03:33]
foswiki_irc8Using HtPasswdUser for sure - not sure which mapper - probably haven't changed from default. [03:33]
gac410okay so TopicUserMapping. Was foswiki installed as 1.3, or has it been upgraded over the life.
Something really strange is going on - I've never heard anything like this happening.
[03:33]
foswiki_irc8Was installed as current version. No upgrades done. The only things System-wise I;ve changed are custom messages for registration and possibly password resets...
Maybe I used a guide form internet based on twiki, not foswiki?
And used some legacy terms somewhere...
[03:37]
gac410foswiki_irc8: I really don't know. still looking at the code.
okay - If the template returns no text, it will also cause the same message
Is your oopsalertsnohtml.tmpl have 3 lines? %{ This is a default template. Inline alerts, embedded in plain text. }%
%TMPL:INCLUDE{"messages"}%
%INSTANTIATE%
If the %INSTANTIATE% is missing, I get the same error you get
the message probably ought to say missing or empty.
foswiki_irc8: did you get that? Make sure the %INSTANTIATE% line is correct in your oopsalertsnohtml.tmpl file
[03:47]
foswiki_irc8sorry, been away - let me check
Looks ok...
%{ This is a default template. Inline alerts, embedded in plain text. }%
%TMPL:INCLUDE{"messages"}%
%INSTANTIATE%
[04:01]
gac410You also said you changed messages?
The bug in Foswiki is that if the code to read the template gets no results, then it reports the file as missing. So maybe the %INSTANTIATE% doesn't find a message in the messages.tmpl file.
I've opened Item11588 for the bug in the error report.
[04:03]
FoswikiBothttp://foswiki.org/Tasks/Item11588 [ Item11588: Foswiki::inlineAlert() reports missing template if resutls are empty. Also wrong template name. ] [04:05]
foswiki_irc8I can't remember where, but I forced Registration Approval to go to my email. Plus changed the email template when users sign up 7 when they get registration approved. [04:05]
gac410hm. maybe something else is going on then. I don't know why. readTemplate should return something ...
foswiki_irc8: you actually see the <h1> ... and markup on the page, right?
[04:08]
foswiki_irc8Yes [04:11]
gac410okay, so I only get that symptom if the template expansion was empty. vs. missing.
okay so one more test - try to reset a password for a totally bogus user asdfg or something.
Do you get a valid error then?
[04:12]
foswiki_irc8This time I get "Password reset failed" (which I didn't get before) plus same error.....
<nop><h1><a name="Foswiki_Installation_Error"></a> Foswiki Installation Error </h1> Template 'alertsnohtml' not found. <p></p> Check your configuration settings for {TemplateDir} and {TemplatePath}
[04:15]
gac410Okay. I'm guessing that one or more of the messages expanded is missing or with bad syntax in messages.tmpl [04:17]
The best way to modify messages, is by creating a myskin.messages.tmpl In it, include messages.tmpl, and then override ONLY the messages you want to change. And change the SKIN setting for the site to myskin,pattern. [04:24]
foswiki_irc8Thanks for your help gac410 - much appreciated. [04:27]
gac410yw - I hope you figure it out. [04:27]
foswiki_irc8Looks like messages.tmpl has not been changed since install. -rw-r--r-- 1 www-data www-data 31316 2011-04-17 06:29 messages.tmpl
But messages.approval.tmpl has...... -rw-r--r-- 1 www-data www-data 419 2011-10-18 18:38 messages.approval.tmpl
[04:27]
gac410Ah. So you are using an approval skin.
For a test, remove "approval" from the skin setting.
see if it fixes the password reset.
[04:28]
foswiki_irc8Sorry took a while to remember it was in Main/SitePreferences
OK, removed and tested, and I now get the correct message!
[04:40]
gac410okay ... so its something in one of those overrides. in messages.approval.tmpl you %INCLUDE messages.
I have a site using the approval overrides - and it is not broken, reset works. So it's something in your overrides. Which files did you create with approval
[04:42]
foswiki_irc8Only one I think... it's a small file....
%TMPL:INCLUDE{"messages"}% %TMPL:DEF{"confirm"}% ---+++ %MAKETEXT{"Thank you for registering"}% %MAKETEXT{"This is an automated e-mail notification of user registration in [_1]." args="%WIKITOOLNAME%"}% Your request has been sent to %REGISTRATIONAPPROVAL% <%REGISTRATIONAPPROVALEMAIL%> who will normally approve your registration within 1-2 working days. Please close this window and wait for approval email.
bad paste, let me split up....
%TMPL:INCLUDE{"messages"}%
[04:44]
gac410try pastebin [04:45]
foswiki_irc8%TMPL:DEF{"confirm"}%
http://pastebin.com/PhJ0e9cS
[04:45]
gac410You are missing a %TMPL:END%
See http://pastebin.com/Z7b5gERm
[04:47]
foswiki_irc8Schoolboy error - I'll get my coat.... [04:49]
gac410:-)
no big deal. The template system is a "bit challenging" is putting it nicely.
[04:49]
foswiki_irc8OK added in - will reset skin and test...
...and it works...
[04:50]
gac410Excellent! [04:53]
foswiki_irc8Thankyou again. [04:53]
gac410you're welcome. [04:53]
GithubBot[foswiki] foswiki pushed 1 new commit to Release01x01: http://git.io/LT-LSA
[foswiki/Release01x01] Item11588: Better exception handling inlineAlert - GeorgeClark
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FoswikiBothttp://foswiki.org/Tasks/Item11588 [ Item11588: Foswiki::inlineAlert() reports missing template if resutls are empty. Also wrong template name. ] [05:04]
GithubBot[foswiki] foswiki pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/vaX38g
[foswiki/master] Item11588: Better exception handling inlineAlert - GeorgeClark
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gac410crap. logs didnt' rollover. unit tests pass. [05:46]
and foswiki.org is logging thousands of errors: | 2012-03-01T05:52:43Z warning | Max recursive depth reached: %CLASS% |

But dates back weeks - so not related to 1.1.5
It's Item10223
[05:53]
FoswikiBothttp://foswiki.org/Tasks/Item10223 [ Item10223: deep recursion warning editing a bug item ] [05:56]
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GithubBot[foswiki] foswiki pushed 2 new commits to Release01x01: http://git.io/xhU87Q
[foswiki/Release01x01] Item11526: add a test showing some of what the handler is passed - SvenDowideit
[foswiki/Release01x01] Item11526: more exploration of the existing functionality - SvenDowideit
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FoswikiBothttp://foswiki.org/Tasks/Item11526 [06:05]
GithubBot[foswiki] foswiki pushed 3 new commits to master: http://git.io/SHB1Kw
[foswiki/master] Item10659: import USERWEB without breaking distributed topics, and begin rename web if importing from 'other' names USERWEB - SvenDowideit
[foswiki/master] Item10659: defer web creation until there are un-skipped topics to import, and rewrite TWiki.Something links to System.Somwthing new links. - SvenDowideit
[foswiki/master] Item11589: Item10549 broke create_new_extension - left the SHORTDESCRIPTION line without a terminating quote; - SvenDowideit
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FoswikiBothttp://foswiki.org/Tasks/Item10659
http://foswiki.org/Tasks/Item11589 [ Item11589: Item10549 broke create_new_extension ] http://foswiki.org/Tasks/Item10549 [ Item10549: Use templates from EmptyContrib ]
[06:06]
GithubBot[foswiki] foswiki pushed 2 new commits to Release01x01: http://git.io/M5Br7A
[foswiki/Release01x01] Item11526: ok, so its all my fault - I keep thinking that Func::renderText will actually do so. there's a bunch of rendering that has to happen first - expandCommonVariables is sufficient for my basic purposes - SvenDowideit
[foswiki/Release01x01] Item11526: leave a little more of a trail to help me next time - SvenDowideit
[06:17]
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SvenDowideitomp.
peter is leaving twiki inc
i wonder where the tm goes
[06:23]
GithubBot[foswiki] foswiki pushed 1 new commit to Release01x01: http://git.io/uG7Zsg
[foswiki/Release01x01] Item11564: AuthScripts checker now outputs 'scripts not in auth' as a comma separated list, and excludes configure, login and logout - SvenDowideit
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FoswikiBothttp://foswiki.org/Tasks/Item11564 [ Item11564: AuthScripts checker could be a little more helpful ] [06:31]
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GithubBot[foswiki] foswiki pushed 1 new commit to Release01x01: http://git.io/OZ4UUA
[foswiki/Release01x01] Item11564: make sure that a bad cfg does not result in an infinite redirectino loop - SvenDowideit
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GithubBot[foswiki] foswiki pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/CA1DkQ
[foswiki/master] Item11564: AuthScripts checker now outputs 'scripts not in auth' as a comma separated list, and excludes configure, login and logout - SvenDowideit
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SvenDowideitso: does anyone know.... if we have docco about 'what to do if you need to do maintainence on the wiki and need to take it offline-ish?
basically, 1.2.0 will have pluggable ACLs - and the other option that foswiki ships with, is AdminOnlyAccess
so only AdminGroup members will be able to view/change/anything at all
but... I don't know where to add pointers to that
[06:59]
GithubBot[foswiki] foswiki pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/Yjy88Q
[foswiki/master] Item10939: add a tiny doc for the spec file - SvenDowideit
[07:02]
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FoswikiBothttp://foswiki.org/Tasks/Item10939 [ Item10939: Pluggable Access Control Implementation to facilitate Extract ACL and Paging feature. ] [07:02]
pharveyI guess you could grep for BROADCAST
pharvey uses BROADCAST to warn about impending madness
[07:02]
SvenDowideitum, huh.
i'm using configure to make a cfg
and view keeps telling me i have a busted cfg
[07:13]
pharveymultiple 1;'s ? [07:14]
SvenDowideitworse
wrong URL for view
SvenDowideit shoots my admin in the foot
[07:15]
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GithubBot[foswiki] foswiki pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/LWQ3sg
[foswiki/master] Item10939: add a tiny doc in the DefaultPreferences topic - SvenDowideit
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BabarBabar won't say it, but Sven! FFS! perltidy! [07:51]
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SvenDowideitphargh! [08:33]
***ChanServ sets mode: +o MichaelDaum [08:39]
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KlausMannHy, we use quite satisfied the ClassificationApp, but now I need a list of all topics without a category. Howto? Someone can help me? [09:25]
MichaelDaumKlausMann, try %DBQUERY{"Category = ''" format=" * $web.$topic"}% [09:35]
flexibeastMichaelDaum: Are there particular situations in which it's better to use DBQUERY rather than SEARCH? [09:38]
MichaelDaumflexibeast, lots of.
for one speed
DBQUERY is SEARCH with all cruft params stripped off
next, it does proper sort+limit required for paging
[09:38]
flexibeast*nod* i assumed speed might be a central issue, since DBQUERY is part of DBCachePlugin.
Ah, okay.
[09:40]
MichaelDaumthe reason why I wrote DBCachePlugin is BlogPlugin: a non-trivial wiki app with lots of queries on the frontpage [09:42]
KlausMannthanks! it works. but: half of the listed topics has no functional link: the WebName is displayed as "creat this topic" ? [09:42]
MichaelDaumfrom BlogPlugin I extracted WikiWorkbenchContrib and ClassificationPlugin, a framework for all other wiki apps that followed
KlausMann, try format=" * [[$web.$topic][$topic]]" instead
[09:44]
KlausMann%DBQUERY{"Category = ''" format=" * [[$web.$topic][$topic]]" is not working ... [09:48]
MichaelDaumlargest wiki app build using the WikiWorkbench consists of 24 TopicTypes, 31 TopicViews, 54 TopicFunctions and 13 TopicTemplates
KlausMann, %DBQUERY{"Category = ''" format=" * [[$web.$topic][$topic]]"}%
[09:49]
KlausManngreat wiki! great community! great livesupport! thanks a lot! by .... klaus [09:51]
MichaelDaumoverall this wiki app consists of 359 topics including skills taxonomy [09:51]
flexibeastKlausMann: Yes, i've only recently come to Foswiki, and i'm pretty impressed by what i've seen so far! [09:52]
KlausMannYes, pretty impressed ! [09:55]
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padraig_lennonHi MichaelDaum - Did you get a chance to see the mail I sent about the use of the Applications web in extensions? Sent a reply to one of your check-ins yesterday.. Any thoughts? [11:57]
MichaelDaumHi padraig_lennon.
yes, the Applications web is used by the WikiWorkbench framework.
I can't change that anymore
[11:57]
padraig_lennonAh ok.. Pity.. I don't think I can start using them then.. :( [12:00]
MichaelDaumwhy? [12:00]
padraig_lennonSay for example I wanted to install ClassificationPlugin.. Does it not overwrite the Web* topics in my Applications web? [12:02]
MichaelDaumno
all applications go in a sub web under Applications
only the WikiWorkbench itself is owning files in the Applications web
padraig_lennon, let's discuss this l8tr. the guys here at the office are waiting for me to join lunch. see you.
[12:02]
padraig_lennonNo problem.. [12:05]
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pharveypadraig_lennon: BibtexFormfieldsPlugin is another thing that ships in data/Applications, but apparently Foswiki doesn't need any Web* topics in the Applications/ directory itself (I was surprised to learn this too) [12:34]
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MichaelDaumwhen you are writing wiki apps beyond a certain level of simplicity, you really should look into WikiWorkbenchContrib. [12:55]
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CDot.... but only if you want to subscribe to hundreds of Michael's plugins >:-) [14:21]
MichaelDaumCDot, this is the technology available. It is there to be used. [14:22]
CDotCDot is poking fun at Michael [14:22]
MichaelDaumyou want standardized wiki apps, maintainable long term, reusable, packageable, compatible with each other? go with WikiWorkbench. that's why it is there. [14:24]
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gac410Item11398 didn't fix the logs - they didn't roll last night. So Item11554 is not a duplicate
And yet the unit tests pass.
[14:44]
FoswikiBothttp://foswiki.org/Tasks/Item11398 [ Item11398: Foswiki logger fails to rotate files other than events.log ] http://foswiki.org/Tasks/Item11554 [ Item11554: Logs are not rolling on first of months. ] [14:45]
gac410If there is a line in the logfile with a bad timestamp, rotation will quietly stop. [14:57]
padraig_lennonHi guys... Back now.. Was just really thinking in terms of the WikiAppInstallerPlugin and the direction that that should take.. Wouldn't the WikiWorkBenchContrib essentially perform the action of installing the WikiApps created with the WikiWorkBenchContrib to various webs?
If we had an agreed approach wouldn't it make it easier to develop something useful together?
[15:08]
MichaelDaumnot sure what the WikiAppInstallerPlugin actually does
for now BuildContrib is what I use to package wiki apps
so they become normal Contribs
they _only_ come with a minimal contrib-like perl stub, the System txt and then a subweb under Applications
from there, users go to Applications.MyNewApp and follow the installation instructions specific to that app to deploy it into an existing web, or on how to create a new web based on a custom tailored _MyNewAppTemplate web
[15:10]
padraig_lennonWikiAppInstallerPlugin - Not much at the moment. It was intended to be a packager of sorts which would be used to showcase WikiApps on foswwiki.org and allow users to download them to their own local install. [15:13]
MichaelDaumdoes it use BuildContrib? [15:14]
padraig_lennonMakes sense.. So would the best approach towards wikiapps be to create them as contribs.. This way they could install via configure right? [15:14]
MichaelDaumexactly [15:15]
padraig_lennonNo its pretty basic at the moment. Its installed on fw.org.. in the WikiApps web.. It needs a lot of work though. but I want to be sure we approach it the correct way before progressing.. [15:16]
MichaelDaumWikiAppInstaller could ease building contribs [15:16]
gac410I was thinking about the concern raiised on the discussion list about the "Applications" web that other sites already have in use. the extension installer used by configure can already rename / reloacate webs. [15:16]
MichaelDaumby auto-creating DEPENDENCIES, MANIFEST, build.pl and a lib/Foswiki/Contrib/MyNewAppContrib.pm [15:16]
padraig_lennonYa I suppose it could.. gac410 - How? [15:16]
gac410But it only does the "well known" webs - System, Sandbox, Main, etc. Maybe we could figure out a way to extend that. [15:17]
MichaelDaummaking WikiApps relocatable might be not that easy [15:17]
padraig_lennonand then providing the ability to upload to foswiki.org? Wouldn't they still need svn/git access? Would have to handle that.. [15:17]
gac410I know other sites that also used "Applications" as a web name. Claiming new webnames is a big issue for existing sites. [15:19]
MichaelDaumcontent might not be portable when generated by the same wiki app on different installations where the DataForms are in a different web
for instance take a topic with a DataForm attached called Applications.MyNewApp.SomeDataForm
[15:19]
padraig_lennonMichael would that be possible if relative paths to forms were provided? [15:20]
gac410The code is in lib/Foswiki/Configure/Util.pm ... mapTarget() and getMappedWebTopic. and depends upon the web or topic being defined in a %BLAH% variable. [15:20]
MichaelDaumnow relocate Applications.MyNewApp to somewhere else, and the used DataForms are stuffed [15:21]
gac410ex. Configure defines {SandboxWebName} Util.pm maps it from Sandbox to Playground, and DataForms, topics, etc. all need to reference %SANDBOXWEB% ... [15:22]
padraig_lennongac410 - exactly.. So the Applications.MyNewApp.SomeDataForm becomes {WikiAppsWebName}.MyNewApp.SomeDataForm
with %WIKIAPPSWEB% being used?
[15:23]
gac410or something. ... needs some thinking, The variables and macros are hardcoded today, So we'd need to make something pluggable in the MANIFEST file.
The challenges are: Users who don't use configure and just unzip. And users who install using .deb or .rpm packages.
[15:24]
MichaelDaumy
thats why I'd prefer to use Applications.MyNewApp as a standard
for the same reason System isn't really relocatable
[15:26]
gac410Except "Applications" is a very common word / name for webs. You are probably locking out a significant part of your potential install base. [15:28]
MichaelDaumnot that I know [15:29]
padraig_lennongac410 - Not really though.. I have Applications and if I understand Michael correctly I can continue to use Applications untouched while installing the apps in Applications/MyNewApp [15:29]
MichaelDaumMain is even more problematic
padraig_lennon, right. You will only have to sort out WikiWorkbench's topics in Applications
bout 70 topics
[15:29]
gac410We really ought to test the relocations. The unit tests run with alternate names for Main, etc. And that depends on what the site uses Applications for. [15:30]
padraig_lennonCould those topics be moved though Michael? to say Applications/SomeWeb? [15:31]
MichaelDaumI wished Foswiki once decided to split up Main into Home and Users
padraig_lennon, nope. they build up the WikiWorkbench infrasctructure
that all other apps use
might be your topics are named completely different
besides Web* of course
but these are - say 5?
[15:31]
padraig_lennonThen you face a bigger issue with the App names conflicting with topics in Applications web of the same name.. [15:32]
MichaelDaumwhats that issue?
custom apps don't install any topic into the Applications web. only beyond in a subweb.
[15:33]
gac410But the Applications installer itself is in Applications. That's a problem. [15:34]
padraig_lennonI need to play around with this before I talk any more.. I don't want to be confusing things.. [15:34]
MichaelDaumgac410, which Applications installer? [15:34]
gac410Didn't you just say you install 70 topics in Applications. That's a collision with any site that uses Applications as a web.
anyway - I'm still stuck with the logs not rotating. What a pain.
[15:35]
padraig_lennonThats what I was talking about as well... [15:37]
MichaelDaumApplications is the place where the WikiWorkbench lives: the TopicType foundation, the creators and wizards used in other apps that live in a subweb _under_ Applications. These all make use of the tools in the WikiWorkbench, and these live in ... Applications [15:37]
padraig_lennondata/Applications/ApplicationTopic.txt data/Applications/GetTopicTypes.txt etc... data/Applications/ApplicationTopicViewTemplate.txt would definitely mess things up for me.. [15:38]
MichaelDaumwhen there's an Applications web already, you'd better move them away. [15:38]
padraig_lennonYes which is the problem.. Thats not possible.. [15:38]
MichaelDaumbest practice is to have the site-specifc things in a _subweb_ under Applications, not in Applications itself. Otherwise you wont be able to extract reusable bits for the next website you build up. [15:39]
padraig_lennonBut that puts the responsibility on the admin. I've never heard that best practice before.. Would it not make more sense to have those topics in the Applications/WikiWorkBench web? To avoid this? [15:41]
MichaelDaumthere are about 1k wiki topics and apps managed that way on various production sites
thats simply not possible for me. there are too many deployments of foswiki sites done that way. running for years now.
[15:41]
gac410Foswiki imposes no restrictions on webnames. You have imposed a restriction on use of Applications ... a very common english word. I suspect that your applications will be generally restricted in sites you maintain / deploy and not see much wider use because of this. [15:43]
MartinCleaverSeen http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Blog/BlogEntry201203x1 ? [15:44]
FoswikiBotSorry, I haven't seen http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Blog/BlogEntry201203x1 . [15:44]
MichaelDaumgac410, what about Main and System, also common english words. [15:44]
MartinCleaverI wasn't asking you, FoswikiBot [15:44]
padraig_lennonI agree with gac410.. I would love to use these extensions Michael. I think its a huge step forward but the way it is its unworkable for me without major changes.. [15:45]
gac410Unfortunately Main and System were / are poor choices, and we to far too little testing of the {SystemWebName} mapping [15:45]
padraig_lennonBut I'm only speaking for me.. [15:46]
gac410So I mis-spoke with the "No restrictions" We impose restrictions on 3 names Main, Sandbox and System. System was an unfortunate decision for Foswiki.
MartinCleaver: WOW PTh leaving TWiki ?
[15:46]
MichaelDaumwhy was System and unfortunate choice? [15:48]
gac410We have had occasional sites on TWiki who already had a System web. We either force them to change how they work, or attempt our {SystemWebName} mapping or ... not migrate. [15:50]
padraig_lennonimho Its too generic... I would like to be able to use the Systems web for documenting IT systems.. [15:50]
gac410Agreed. iirc, where I worked had a System web on their T* system as well. [15:51]
MichaelDaumpadraig_lennon, use one web for your docu and then categories within that web asigning topics to one or more subject matter fields [15:51]
gac410words like System, Main, Applications, Documentation, are totally obvious words for a site to use as a web.
MichaelDaum: The problem is you are trying to rewrite history. System and Applications may have been chosen years ago, and have 100's or 1000's of users familiar with the name.
[15:51]
padraig_lennonCan you imagine trying to do that now to a site which is +5yo with over 30K topics [15:52]
gac410You seem to think that every site is new and either has no history, or can "just change" [15:52]
MichaelDaumRoot level webs should be Home, Users, Knowledge, Projects, Blogs, Sandbox, System, Applications. [15:53]
padraig_lennonWhere was that defined? [15:53]
gac410gac410 goes back to the logger. This is nuts. [15:53]
padraig_lennonIf I could start again I would do thing very differently.. But I can't.. Thats the problem.. [15:54]
MichaelDaumgac410, can you imagine that I had discussions like this one for ages again and again with the community not agreeing. Nothing moves on. That's why I prefer stump on the ground and impose some standards where desperately needed. [15:54]
padraig_lennonThats fair enough Michael. You're entitled to do that.. I believe we were just checking if making things more configurable would be an option to avail of your work.. [15:56]
gac410IMO the *only* possible solution is to make the {blahWebName} mapping work, and impose NO NAME RESTRICTIONS. As soon as you add a new restriction. And Applications is new to me, you are ignoring the install base.
Webs are user facing. USERS decide, not us developers.
[15:56]
MichaelDaumWikiWorkbench is a standard for wiki apps. standards mean limiting choices not to mess up things too much. Foswiki is already ├╝berconfigurable. At the end of the day you tweaked your foswiki up to a point nothing works anymore and no reset button in sight. [15:57]
gac410we had 100's of root level webs where I worked - site was 5+ years old.
What standard. Yours? certainly not mine,
[15:57]
MichaelDaumgac410, there are aeons of wiki apps out there that are not done the WikiWorkbench way. and people suffer from this.
it is code spattered all over the place, absolutely non-maintainable.
[15:59]
gac410Anyway .. the ()@#*) logger doesn't rotate files. That's an urgent issue. We can argue about names later. TBH i've never heard of WikiWorkBench until recently. And have never looked at it. [16:00]
padraig_lennonThats why we are talking about this Michael. To hopefully start to bring some control on this issue..
In a perfect world I would start using the workbench this minute.. I just want to be sure that thats going to be a standard..
[16:00]
gac410IMHO, the only core Foswiki way is to use the extension_installer and _template webs and any non-core extensions like WikiWorkbench are just that - no-core extensions. And certainly don't impose any standards on foswiki core. [16:02]
MichaelDaumgac410, this rules out some plugins essential to enterprise foswikis, i.e. ClassificationPlugin, BlogPlugin, and a few more large scale wiki apps.
for now the community decided to ignore this technology all together and reinvent the wheel from scratch. pitty.
[16:03]
ArthurClemensalthough there is a proposal that I've supported: http://foswiki.org/Development/TopicsShouldGetTypesFromFormsNotNames [16:10]
padraig_lennonI don't think we are doing that.. It seems to me however (as a relative novice and pretty typical of a normal local foswiki admin) is that they use foswiki for a specific simple purpose.. (At least at the start) If the wiki idea works then more enterprise components like you are referring to become more important. But the end user cannot be expected to plan ahead like that [16:10]
gac410The logging issue is indeed a bad time. foswiki.org events.log has a bad timestamp in it - and it aborts rotation. [16:10]
CDot: The logger issue is there is a record with a ^M in the logged information. The line is split, and the remainder doesn't have a valid timestamp, so rotate process aborts. [16:22]
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gac410embedded newlines in error messages also breaks error.log rotation. [16:42]
CDotgac410: the log format is insane. Always has been. [16:47]
gac410I think I'm going to fix it by printing the bad record to STDERR and skipping the record, instead of just stopping processing.
I've got local copies to beat upon to see if I can work through the issues.
[16:48]
CDotACTA is emerging again, like Dracula rising from his coffin. Get your stake in early by signing http://www.avaaz.org/en/acta_time_to_win_eu//?cl=1627490568&v=12958 [16:53]
gac410Okay so bug will be fixed. But rotate takes a LONG time - took 2 minutes to rotate the 1.5 million events in f.o events log
The error.log is a real problem. Anything that generates a multi-line error breaks everything. Need to escape newlines. But that makes the file so much less readable by the admin trying to understand an error.
[16:55]
MartinCleaver"I just want to be sure that thats going to be a standard.." - WikiWorkbench - quite. I've loved the idea but refused to use it until it was released and stabilized. [17:02]
gac410CDot: plainfile protects vertical bar - encoding as &vbar; ... For newlines, should it be &nl; or $n or just not protect them.
I just can't imagine reading a multi-line error message, like the javascript fail messages in SWP - if they are a single line with $n.
[17:04]
ArthurClemensMartinCleaver: I would love to see http://foswiki.org/Extensions/WikiWorkbenchContrib too
not just the code but as an API, a documented way of design patterns
[17:19]
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GithubBot[foswiki] foswiki pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/Miz9xQ
[foswiki/master] Item11554: rework log rotation routine. - GeorgeClark
[18:03]
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FoswikiBothttp://foswiki.org/Tasks/Item11554 [ Item11554: Logs are not rolling on first of months. ] [18:04]
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gac410CDot: My logger changes successfully rotated the error log on trunk.foswiki.org. Could you give the my changes a quick review, and I'll commit it to release 11 branch [18:23]
CDotCDot does so [18:24]
gac410The aftermath is in the logs on the server. All bad log logged to the now 300+ meg apache error log. :-( [18:24]
CDotdid u intend to check in the debug print statements? [18:25]
gac410Yes - so I could see what happend on trunk.f.o
I'll either remove, or add a TRACE variable or something.
[18:25]
CDotCDot only ever intended "PlainFile" as the reference impl of a "stupid" logger. Shame it never got replaced :-(
your changes look fine from inspection; however, that's no guarantee....
[18:25]
gac410The problem is clearly multiline errors/events. an embedded ^M or newline breaks rotate. My fix works for the issues on f.o and t.f.o ... but who knows what else is broken :-(
I hate unintended consequences, esp. when dealing with something like logs - that some may find precious
[18:27]
CDotCDot would prefer to default to a more robust logger than try to fix that thing [18:29]
gac410yeah. but in the meantime probably *everyone* uses it, and logs are growing. The rotate on f.o takes > 2 minutes now with 2+ months data. [18:29]
CDotouch
we should probably rotate more often then
[18:30]
gac410yeah - but the interval is hard coded in the PlainFile logic. As you said ... CDot would prefer to default to a more robust logger than try to fix that thing [18:31]
CDotCDot is stunned how crap the Javascript support is for unicode characters in RegExp
it's hard-coded? Good grief, who wrote that crap?
CDot runs for the hills
[18:31]
gac410At least it wasn't me. git blame FTW You had better hide CDot :-D [18:34]
CDotCDot only ported the old code (at least, that's my excuse and I'm sticking to it) [18:34]
gac410blame doesn't lie ( And thankfully I have not run tidy. That was your mistake. Yeah... must have run tidy)
gac410 has a date with a snowblower - off to get the boots on - bbl :-(
[18:35]
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ugh . 10-15 cm of wet concrete disguised as snow. [19:29]
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ArthurClemensso how does blowing wet concrete work? [20:20]
gac410It's a bit of a chore :-)
This is the first significant snow we've had since October 2011 - It's been a crazy year.
And yet last year for the winter season we had well over 2 meters.
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GithubBot[foswiki] foswiki pushed 2 new commits to Release01x01: http://git.io/krY4LQ
[foswiki/Release01x01] Item11554: rework log rotation routine. - GeorgeClark
[foswiki/Release01x01] Item11554: PlainFile Logger error handling - GeorgeClark
[20:48]
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FoswikiBothttp://foswiki.org/Tasks/Item11554 [ Item11554: Logs are not rolling on first of months. ] [20:48]
GithubBot[foswiki] foswiki pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/uGGx7g
[foswiki/master] Item11554: PlainFile Logger error handling - GeorgeClark
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penguin359hello
I've just freshly installed FosWiki
I'm planning on using two different Webs for two different groups mostly for permission control
I'm curious if it's normal or recommended to use the Main web for general usage, or if I should just create two new Webs and leave Main mostly untouched.
Will that also make it easier for future upgrades?
[23:53]
gac410Main is used for user registration. So that's were all your user topics will go. It's generally better to push local created content into its own web, and leave Main just for the registrations and groups. [23:56]

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