#foswiki 2012-06-06,Wed

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WhoWhatWhen
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SvenDowideitPsychoTrahe, what i do for sites with more webs
is to use jquery to lazy load the sidebar
and then to wack a 60min cache on that request
so for most page views it comes from the browser cache
i intend to formalise this a little in 1.2.0
but its doable now
[00:41]
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pharvey, we never discussed the deployment needs for your super magival wysiwyg formfields
i'm presuming you like the idea of a separate plugin only for deployment reasons?
as opposed to just trunking it
[01:48]
gac410gac410 does happy dance ... someone else picks up Wysiwyg forever [01:49]
pharveywell, I thought a plugin would be interesting for 1.1 users [01:49]
SvenDowideitpharvey, pfffft :p
1.2.0 is coming :)
[01:49]
pharveyI can cope with trunking it [01:50]
SvenDowideiti know you can cope
but what is your preference!
'that it works, now, with no new dev' - y, almost :p only another 10% to do
[01:50]
pharveynifty
I must admit a plugin would be easier for me right now
[01:50]
SvenDowideitok, cool [01:51]
pharveybut in a couple of weeks I hope to be up with current trunk in prod
been testing for a few months, just need to fix natedit
[01:51]
SvenDowideit(i havn't started work, its just that my investigations make me think that its no major shift in world
finally got to the skin cancer clinic this morning - you, nothing, you're just old
so >:) for me
[01:51]
pharveythat must be a relief!
are you sure you're old?
[01:52]
SvenDowideitmeh :) its just a tick list item from 10 years ago
next up, dentist - havn;t been since... er... 2008?
so i'm slowly catching up
[01:52]
gac410old is relative [01:53]
SvenDowideityup
relative to the people i'm around most of the time, i'm old :p
dangnabbit, they're 3!
given that 5 years ago, i was planning on riding a stage of the tour de france with crawford this year, and instead, i've got kids
[01:53]
pharveySvenDowideit, I was thinking richtext+html or richtext+tml to indicate content preference [01:54]
SvenDowideiti was wondering if instead i could add field attr's
but we'll see what comes out of that washing
cos y, it needs 2 axis - texarea/wysiwyg and storeage format
i'm loving being able to spin up a new vm trivially
[01:55]
pharveydevops ninja [01:56]
SvenDowideitbut i wish i could work out why the vagrant box i'm testing with is busted
perlops - or was that plops
ke-per-lops?
if only i wasn't cold here in my office :(
[01:57]
pharveythe next field attr to add should be field title
oh, you mean, Attributes like MH
[01:59]
SvenDowideity, but i refuse to use letters [01:59]
pharveyI always considered that column a can-o-worms
that's the pessimist in me
[01:59]
SvenDowideiti wanted to xform it into a commaseparated list anyway
and just use the legacy ones as 'deprecated shortcuts'
but its a whatever - i'll end up doing whatever is simple
[01:59]
pharveysomebody told me there is ancient code out there does things like $attrs =~ /H/i [02:00]
SvenDowideiti just like the idea of type: textarea, attr: wysiwyg [02:00]
pharveyyep [02:01]
SvenDowideitand maybe add a default that might let someone make it default to0 [02:01]
pharveyalthough, I really wish DataForms were more datatype declarative than what-widgets-do-you-want-today [02:01]
SvenDowideittextarea ~ tml text
which makes me think type:htmlarea ~ html
and type: jsonarea...?
blahdyblah
[02:02]
pharveyI was thinking of TML and HTML as different serializations of richtext :P
http://trac.foswiki.org/browser/trunk/ListFormfieldPlugin/lib/Foswiki/Form/List.pm implements list+foo madness
[02:03]
SvenDowideity, but thats still widgets thinking [02:03]
pharveylist+select or list+checkbox, etc. [02:03]
SvenDowideitlalala [02:03]
pharveynot that I'm suggesting anything, just brainstorming [02:03]
SvenDowideiti tend to look at it as 'where would we like to go'
and we'd like to have type: be a data type constraint
html, text and list etc are that
+something could be looked at as a render modifier we could push to attr's
(i'm also just brainfarting/storming
[02:04]
pharveycool. I was just thinking from POV of dataforms building [02:05]
SvenDowideiti knows nothin :) [02:06]
pharveyI was hoping somebody did!
that job must be gac410's
[02:07]
SvenDowideitcorrect
we delegated remembering
and if he's not up to the job, we'll outsource :0
[02:07]
pharveyyou know [02:08]
SvenDowideiter, no, thats the point? [02:08]
pharveyif we fix unicode in Foswiki, somebody will have to eventually fix Colas's irc logger too :P [02:08]
SvenDowideitColas, you hear that? you're not internationalized! [02:08]
gac410Er... don't we have a wiki to remember stuff? I'm surprised when I remember my name. [02:08]
SvenDowideita w.i.k.i? wossat? [02:08]
pharveythe wiki remembers, but we need to remember where we remembered it
pharvey abandons ship momentarily
[02:09]
gac410aint that always a hoot. ... I *know* I put it someplace. Kinda like trying to find the car keys. [02:09]
SvenDowideitmmm, i too will return, must find coffee [02:10]
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GithubBot[foswiki] foswiki pushed 1 new commit to Release01x01: http://git.io/OXt6nQ
[foswiki/Release01x01] Item11927: Permit attachment move / delete - GeorgeClark
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FoswikiBothttp://foswiki.org/Tasks/Item11927 [ Item11927: Fix for Item5464 incomplete. Move or delete of an attachment still verifies TOPICRENAME and WEBRENAME permissions ] [03:00]
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GithubBot[foswiki] foswiki pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/tBdK_Q
[foswiki/master] Item11927: Permit attachment move / delete - GeorgeClark
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foswiki_irc3Hi all! A question about SolrPlugin:
Are people using it on productive enterprise systems?
When I last tried it a couple of years back, the search was great but the integration into Foswiki was still a bit rough around the edges.
Is it planned to include it into core at one stage?
[05:57]
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SvenDowideitfoswiki_irc3, its used in quite a number of enterprise systems
but no, there's almost no chance that a heavy java based indexer becomes part of the core
[06:36]
pharveyWould be nice if there was a SEARCH{type="solr" thing for it.
although miss out on all the faceted stuff.
[06:45]
SvenDowideitit wouldn't have to, but then, meh - piles more work :) [06:46]
pharveyI was assuming the quickest hack approach :) [06:49]
SvenDowideity, put the faceted stuff into either a separate macros
or better, add some custom formatters
by pushing them into the Search::formatter hash
probly not hard
[06:49]
foswiki_irc3SvenDowideit: Thanks.
I guess pharvey's comment also answered my next question. So it's not possible to replace the SEARCH macros we have in place now?
[06:55]
SvenDowideitnot without work [06:55]
pharveyIt's still using its own SOLRSEARCH macro. [06:56]
SvenDowideiti've done integrations like that 2.4 times now, and itsalotawork [06:56]
foswiki_irc3I just checked the plugin page. The current version is from 2010. Is there a newer version around? [06:56]
SvenDowideitits not like solr couldn't work with type=text, its just that its not been coded [06:56]
foswiki_irc3SvenDowideit: OK, I guess I don't want to go down that track. [06:57]
SvenDowideitwhy not :) coding is fun >:} [06:57]
foswiki_irc3It's a pitty that it won't be included into core. IMHO the lack of a powerful search is a main weakness.
If you know what you're doing, coding is fun. I agree... ;-)
[06:58]
SvenDowideitcan you imagine forcing people to install java and tomcat/jetty to run a perl app? [06:58]
pharveyfoswiki_irc3: there's been work in SVN, but not released yet. Not sure why. [06:58]
foswiki_irc3SvenDowideit: No, I fully understand your point. [06:59]
pharveyhistory at http://trac.foswiki.org/log/trunk/SolrPlugin [06:59]
foswiki_irc3pharvey: OK, I will see what I find there. I guess it's not recommended to run Foswiki straight from SVN (for a productive system). [07:01]
SvenDowideitwrong person to ask :)
he runs one of the biggest foswiki's in the world, on trunk :)
[07:01]
pharveyIt's not recommended, unless your full-time job is web things. Michael might do another proper release if you ask nicely
Depending on how much babysitting you are prepared to do with your Foswiki installation, you can build from svn yourself, or ask someone else to build it for you
In my situation we always stage any updates on a test VM first
[07:02]
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foswiki_irc3OK, I'll try to convince Michael to release a new version.
We've still got 1.0.9 running and I've been planning to upgrade. But ut's not that straightforward with all the customisation - and with solr integration.
As I haven't got time for the upgrade and don't even think of spending more time for the svn build process.
[07:20]
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***ChanServ sets mode: +o MichaelDaum [07:44]
foswiki_irc3MichaelDaum: Hi! We were just discussing the status of SolrPlugin. Would it be possible to relase all the changes done in svn as a new version? [07:47]
MichaelDaumfoswiki_irc3, not yet. there are still some urgent tasks open for SolrPlugin.
in addition, I am about to implement a new ajax-solr based search interface in addition to the old style one
[07:48]
foswiki_irc3OK, sounds great. Any plans for a release date? [07:49]
MichaelDaumI am testing them on a large intranet install for a client this week going live today and more tests following up til friday
so things are pretty busy
there are still some perf problems I am not sure where they come from in 1.1.5
[07:50]
foswiki_irc3It's not that urgent to me. [07:51]
MichaelDaumthe other problem is that my vmware makes my laptop go wild installing updates ;) [07:52]
SvenDowideitMichaelDaum foswiki_irc3 is also still on 1.0.9
in case that is a problem (i don't know)
[07:55]
MichaelDaumyea we are moving from 109 to 115 too
SolrPlugin wasnt a problem here
[07:56]
foswiki_irc3I would have to upgrade to 1.1.5 first anyway. In the same step I wanted to include solr.
Is 1.2.0 far away?
[07:56]
SvenDowideity, at least 3 months, probly 6
unless someone gets really enthusiastic and pushes out what it is now
[07:57]
MichaelDaumyea solr (or any other enterprise search) is a must-have for any larger foswiki
next will be 116 I guess. the wysiwyg changes alone seem to justify a maintenance release.
[07:57]
SvenDowideitmmm, maybe i should poke 1.1 for the wysiwyg formfields thing then :(
i'd rather not of course
meh, too late at night to think hard
[07:58]
foswiki_irc3MichaelDaum: Do you think there will be a release of SolrPlugin in July? [07:59]
MichaelDaumfoswiki_irc3, depends on how fast I am porting the hierarchical facet to the new ajax interface.
then there are holidays
where's my calendar
july is pretty tight already
let's be pessimistic ... to be on the safe side
the other problem upgrading from 1.0.9 to 1.1.5 is the changes in Foswiki::Form::*::getDefaultValue()
[08:00]
FoswikiBothttp://trunk.foswiki.org/System/PerlDoc?module=Foswiki::Form [08:06]
MichaelDaumi.e. for radio, select and checkboxes
e.g. | Invoiced | radio | yes, no | | M | .... every invoice record is already invoiced now by default ... not what you want
was unselected before
[08:06]
SvenDowideitmmm, ouch
can't we call that a bug an dfix it in 1.1.6?
i thought i noticed that, but figured i was mistaken
[08:08]
MichaelDaumas far as I remembered reading the task item, george fixed the code to be in line with the docu
which says, defaults to first value in a list
[08:09]
SvenDowideit:(
y, that rings a bell
but how to default to unleslected
ie, user mush choose
[08:09]
MichaelDaumgetDefaultValue should return undef or the empty string
undef triggers some use of undef value here and there ...
[08:09]
SvenDowideitits darned awkward both ways tho :/ [08:10]
MichaelDaumso return '' should be default unless overridden by a superclass
but thats meh too
the calling code isnt undef safe in some areas
undef value in split ... n stuff
[08:10]
SvenDowideityup :/ [08:11]
MichaelDaumbtw is there a context flag for being member ofthe admin group? [08:12]
SvenDowideitthere might be an isadmin context, but i've not looked in a while
as it'd make some css things really trivial
[08:13]
MichaelDaumthats exactly what I am aiming at
adding a <body class="foswikiUserIsAdmin"> .... <div class="adminOnlySettings"> ...</div> ...
and then .foswikiUserIsAdmin .adminOnlySettings { display:block};
[08:13]
SvenDowideitthats why i wanted a %CONTEXT% macro
i wanted the body's class to contain all the contexts
but that feat req got rejected
[08:15]
MichaelDaumMichaelDaum worried about an %IF{"'%USERNAME%' ingroup 'AdminGroup' ...}% performance being called on every page
but I think I am going to do exactly that
[08:15]
SvenDowideiter
there's no need
if the reqsting user is in the admin group
then foswiki::isadmin is set
so you're not looking for group membership, just isadmin-ness
go look for the context first tho
[08:16]
MichaelDaumfoswiki::isadmin is a common context? ... good to know
can't find it in the code
[08:18]
SvenDowideitno, not context, its a session attr
somewhere
as its used to decide that we don't ACL test for those req's
[08:19]
MichaelDaumah part of %USERINFO
thx for the hint
[08:21]
SvenDowideit:) [08:27]
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CDotdangerous to rely on a session setting for determining admin status. Wouldn't base anything important on that decision. [09:13]
ClauspHi, I have following problem: in the header there is no WIKIWEBLIST. I just installed the standard version with pattern skin
I have Logo, Jump, Search - thats it. How can I activate the WIKIWEBLIST?
[09:18]
ArthurClemensClausp: in pattern skin the web list is in the left bar [09:21]
ClauspIs there a way to integrate it in the header? [09:21]
ArthurClemensor you can use the fattily theme from pattern skin for a horizontal navigation
dependent on the number of webs you have
[09:21]
Clauspsounds good. Where do I find this theme?
With natSkin it doesnt work either
[09:22]
ArthurClemensgo to System/PatternSkin
mind that some installations have 10s or even 100s of webs
so a generic solution does not work
[09:22]
ClauspOk, I am in System/PatternSkin - what do I do next ;)
(I am a real beginner with foswiki)
[09:23]
ArthurClemenslook for the word "theme"
you will probably have to read some text
[09:25]
ClauspI can change it temporarelly to FatWilly Theme - that looks right
How can I do it permanently?
is it in Set PatterSkinThemeVariant?
[09:26]
ArthurClemensif you are on the fatwilly theme page, the instructions are right there [09:28]
ClauspYEP - THANKS A LOT. I try it now...
it works. now next challenge: how do I change the Webs to my own (e.g. I do not have a development web, which is now shown)
[09:28]
PsychoTraheis it possible to switch user with sso/ldap? [09:41]
ArthurClemensClausp: copy page System.PatternSkinThemeFatWillyNavigation to a new topic
for instance System.HorizontalNavigation
then set PATTERNSKIN_NAVIGATION_TOPIC to point to that topic
[09:47]
Clauspah, I am already changing the System.PatternSkinThemeFat...Navigation - wrong way? [09:48]
ArthurClemensyes
because on the next FW upgrade… poof
[09:48]
Clauspyep - thanks again - now it will work [09:49]
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PsychoTraheto switch users in sso I currently cannot imagine a solution other than redirecting to a second foswiki installation with Template based login. any other hints? maybe in the dev pipeline? [10:06]
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SvenDowideitPsychoTrahe logout?
or does the sso you have not have a logout?
actually, PsychoTrahe i suspect you're asking your questoin backwards
if you want to be able to change users and have ldap, use LdapContrib and its template login setting
that way its not sso tho
[11:01]
MichaelDaumPsychoTrahe, on a sso authentication is performed on transport layer so to say using kerberos or similar technology
at this level Foswiki isnt involved yet
the lower layers then indicate the auth. user using environment variables
so these are set automatically by your http server
the only way to log in using a different user is to open a separate browser that is not using kerberos
when sso fails, basic auth will kick in as a fallback and will let you authenticate using a different user manually
at least thats how sso is set up commonly
some browsers allow you to open a separate window in incognito mode (like chrome)
these have different user and permission settings than in normal mode and thus allow you to log in as a different user ... using the same browser
[11:06]
SvenDowideita few of the sso's i've used have interfaces using http, so those are pretty simple to logout of
but i am always surprised how 'home grown' they feel - tacked on the side
i really should go poke client side certs more :/
[11:15]
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PsychoTraheMichaelDaum, SvenDowideit I think spnego/kerberos not necessarily needs to be handled by the web server module
at least I've seen http sso applications with logout buttons
but private mode is a good hint
tried.. in IE the ticket ist still forwarded
[11:46]
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ArthurClemensI am also having troubles with SSO. When I go to an authenticated page, I am redirected to a SSO login page. After that it redirects to the authenticated page, but that results in (for instance) "Bad Request: GET denied for manage" [12:19]
MichaelDaumI am currently profiling 1.1.5 to see where the times are spent
one problem is checking file timestamps and in case the txt is newer treat things differently
now that happens a lot over here
yet I don't want to run a touch on all ,v files regularly just to get performance again
right?
so what happens if I disable the $handler->noCheckinPending() in the Store
thats because if it returns false a $handler->getInfo() eats cpu like popcorn
disabling this check shaved off about 100ms
of an total of 840ms
[12:23]
CDotMichaelDaum: of course; that check is going to be at least as expensive as a stat(). However if the stat says "everything is cool" then that is the only cost. [12:37]
MichaelDaumthe cost is $hander->getInfo() [12:38]
CDotIf you have f*ucked up and edited .txt files without checking in, then the cost goes up significantly, of course. [12:38]
MichaelDauminside the unless ($handler->noCheckinPending()) { block }
there are too many interactions with rcs
[12:38]
CDotright; so if there *is* a checkin pending, it costs more, as I said. And the "more" is the getInfo. [12:39]
MichaelDaumMichaelDaum disabled that check all together [12:39]
CDotSo don;t use RCS. Use the PlainFileStore instead. [12:39]
MichaelDaumI have to bring back performance to 1.0.9 level by all means [12:40]
CDotYou can disable the check if you want. It's there to protect people; if you don;t want protection, then go bareback. [12:40]
MichaelDaumshould be configurable, eh? [12:41]
CDotno. The check is there to ensure store consitency. Store consistency should *not* be configurable.
the store should always be trustable.
disable the check, and you can't trust it; but that's *your* risk, not something that should be configurable.
[12:41]
MichaelDaumhow much faster is PlainFileStore? [12:43]
CDotOf course if you dont edit offline - or make sure you check in after onlie edits - it's moot, as the getInfo is never called.
I don't know. Faster, but i can't tell you how much.
For one thing, RCS performance is highly platform dependent
[12:43]
MichaelDaumthis is a big iron: lots of cpus - lots of ram. [12:44]
CDotmy recommendation to you is to ensure that you never run into the getInfo, by ensuring that files are *always* checked in
so .txt is *never* newer than .txt,v
in that case, perf. should be 1.0.x + the cost of one stat per file
[12:44]
MichaelDaumgot the same effect disabling the noCheckinPending thingy [12:46]
CDotyes, as I said; your risk. And it's a big risk. But it's yours :-) [12:46]
MichaelDaumwhat do I risk? [12:46]
CDotyou risk the history getting mangled [12:47]
MichaelDaumdo I risk the same as using 1.0.9? [12:47]
CDotyes [12:47]
MichaelDaumwell
1.0.9 has been running fine for a _Very_ long time over here
[12:47]
CDotCDot regards that level of risk as unacceptable, so ensures that all offline edits are checked in (which elimnates the risk)
though of course you have to manually manage the META:TOPICINFO
[12:47]
MichaelDaumMichaelDaum has got his performance hat on today ... and ate his high fly correctness hat yesterday for lunch
performance by all means means: feel berserk wrt code optimization botches
[12:48]
CDotthat's always the tradeoff. PlayStation runs fast because they accept the FPU calculations accumulate errors; but it doesn't matter if you are only playing games. [12:49]
MichaelDaumI hate those bits off by one [12:49]
foswiki_irc3Sorry to interrupt: Is there a simple check to see if there are .txt file that are newer than their .txt,v counterparts? [12:54]
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CDotfoswiki_irc3: nothing simple; though you can write a simple script pretty easily. "stat -c %Y <filename>" gives you the modification time of a file as a comparable number. [13:09]
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***ChanServ sets mode: +o OliverKrueger [15:43]
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fsfsshouldn't a call like $context = &Foswiki::Func::getPreferencesValue( "COMPARECONTEXT", $webName ) return a value of COMPARECONTEXT set in Main/SitePreferences? I thought setting preferences in Main/SitePreferences vs. OneWeb/WebPreferences is purely a matter of scope [17:03]
FoswikiBothttp://trunk.foswiki.org/System/PerlDoc?module=Foswiki::Func [17:03]
fsfsinstead, it seems WebPreferences is the only place where it's taken into account, any value set in SitePreferences is just ignored [17:03]
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***ChanServ sets mode: +o MichaelDaum [17:41]
MichaelDaumI need somebody for thinking
observation: rename/delete accross webs like moving to trash takes ages
the process gets stuck in _replaceWebInternalReferences
iterating over _all_ of the source web
even though null referring_topics have been provided
is that true?
anybody?
if so then this is a severe error
and the code is even worse
this takes nr-topics-source x nr-topics-target web iterations
as _replaceWebInternalReferenecs is called for each topic in the source web ... which calls _replaceInternalrRefs .... for each topic in the target web
[17:41]
http://foswiki.org/Tasks/Item11929
can anybody confirm?
deleting a topic from a 4k web into a well filled trash takes a 7-8 mio loops inspecting the content of each topic...boy that sux
in fact given those numbers the code is doing quite fast :(
[17:54]
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foswiki_irc7anybody here use TreeBrowser on their wiki? [23:37]
I'm trying to render a tree created by TreePlugin using TreeBrowser but the example code doesn't work for me [23:42]

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