#foswiki 2012-06-13,Wed

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WhoWhatWhen
SvenDowideit139 people. Stable. [03:21]
gac410howdy SvenDowideit [03:22]
SvenDowideit1Heya :-)
This tablet thins quite nice for consuming ...
I wonder how to make it better for creation
Sadly. The touch js I wanted to use doesn't
Work on here.. back to the drawing board
Mmmm, time to make lunch :-) later
[03:22]
gac410laters [03:25]
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AlexisHazellAlexisHazell wants a FOREACH macro. :-) [04:42]
SvenDowideit1There are 2
f
FORMAT. Is one for display and there's a plugin
[04:46]
AlexisHazellIs the other $LISTMAP in %CALC%?
Basically i want to run a macro for each item in a list created by a macro.
To wit, i'm trying to create a list of tags in the current web, and under each tag in the list, a list of topic pages with that tag.
(TagMePlugin.)
[04:50]
SvenDowideit1So what's wrong with the built in FORMAT
TS the same as SEARCH except it takes a comma separated list...
Same code
[04:56]
AlexisHazellSo i can run a macro from within the format parameter? [04:57]
SvenDowideit1Same as search
And outside it. As in the default param is the list
Ie FORMAT{"one,two,three" format=
Hand the usual inside out left to right processing of macros applies
[04:57]
AlexisHazellYeah, i'm looking at the docs for it now, trying to get my head around how to implement what i'm after .... thanks, will see how i go. :-) [04:59]
SvenDowideit1Man, its hard to type code on this Android virtual KB, but I RC chat is pretty fast [05:00]
AlexisHazellCrikey, i can't imagine trying to code on my smartphone. Even typing chat feels really slow to me .... [05:00]
SvenDowideit1Its a tablet so the KB is about the same size as my 12 x61 notebook :-)
Mmm, more sick child fun
[05:03]
AlexisHazellAh.
And, :-(
[05:05]
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W00t! Got it working; my quoting-fu is getting better. Thanks SvenDowideit1! [05:23]
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ChanServ sets mode: +o MichaelDaum [06:22]
MichaelDaum"AlexisHazell wants a FOREACH macro. :-)" ... try FilterPlugin. its FORMATLIST is the most advanced list parser we have. it is regularly used in wiki apps for FOREACH things. [06:24]
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CDotMichaelDaum: I wonder if there's any mileage in abstracting the list parser, same as we did for the table parser. [06:44]
MichaelDaumCDot, heh
remember the discussion we had before %FORMAT materialized?
[06:45]
CDotdepending on how it works, it might be sensible to incorporate it in the table parser (which is an event-based parser anyway, so adding a list event wouldn't be irrational) [06:45]
SvenDowideitparser ~~ serialiser ~~ things that feed iterators
FORMAT really isn't anything other than an iterator _consumer_
[06:47]
MichaelDaumFilterPlugin's list parser does not create an internal _list object_ that could be passed around between independent peers [06:47]
SvenDowideitMichaelDaum, the thing i/we didn't like about FilterPlugin was the format= output [06:48]
CDotCDot didn't mean that sort of list. I mean a bullet/ordinal list [06:48]
SvenDowideitnot the parser bit [06:48]
MichaelDaumah FORMATLIST does not parse TML lists [06:48]
SvenDowideitCDot, all of those make sense to abstract into serialiser things that feed iterators [06:48]
MichaelDaumMichaelDaum has never seen a bullet list parser. is there one? [06:49]
SvenDowideitmumble :) [06:49]
MichaelDaumbesides the one part of rendering TML in <ul>...</ul> [06:49]
CDotSvenDowideit: hmmmm. Iterators. I guess tacking an iterator onto an event-based parser isn't too hard [06:49]
SvenDowideitit should be trivial [06:49]
CDotyes, there's a bullet-list parser in Render.pm
it's one of the scariest pieces of simple code I ever saw
[06:50]
MichaelDaum... that all too often produces mall-formed html [06:50]
SvenDowideitwysiwyg datafields should be landing next week
its amazing how simple and yet scary that is too
[06:50]
MichaelDaumif theres something labeled simple it is a sign for (a) someone else did the heavy lifting already or (b) the problem isnt understood in full [06:51]
SvenDowideiti mostly hope i've not totally misunderstood the dataflows of foswiki->wysiwyg->tinymce->wysiwyg->tmce->round&round->foswiki [06:51]
CDotwysiwyg data fields sounds like a jolly fine thing. You managed to init TMCE differently in different areas of the page? wow [06:52]
SvenDowideity, initing more than once was already simple - as its been progressivly been improved over the last few years [06:52]
CDotCDot was slightly scared of wysiwyg data fields mainly because of the encoding used in the RCS store to store data values [06:52]
SvenDowideity - thats the big scary bit that i'm afraid about too
as i'm not sure how to get enough test info
[06:53]
CDotI *think* the encoding is solid, but searching that data using regexes is a no-no [06:53]
SvenDowideitmy rex work isn't quite up to the point where i can unleash it on the world to make a one click selsinum multi-vm test system [06:54]
CDotsince we use hoisting to search data fields, that kinda breaks everything [06:54]
SvenDowideitCDot, na, we decided to ignore that
field type=rickrolled
er, richtext
[06:54]
CDotok, ignoring it is fine. I was just scared by it, because without it you don't have a "complete" solution [06:54]
SvenDowideityup [06:55]
CDotunless, of course, your regex engine smart enough to decode in the right places..... [06:55]
SvenDowideitfor now it'll be a plugin, but while poking it, i'm thinking hard about generalising [06:55]
MichaelDaumdata values should be decoded and indexed _before_ searching them [06:56]
SvenDowideitthis code needs love, and having hoped for years someone else would show some love..
MichaelDaum, y, and in other stores, they are
its also why the store2 query interface works that way
[06:56]
CDoty, it's just the crude regex search (and the hoisted data field search) that has probs [06:57]
MichaelDaumCDot, for these I dont feel pity [06:57]
SvenDowideitmmm, dumb q time - CDot, MichaelDaum do either of you try to interact with your foswiki's using a tablet or mobile?
me neither much :)
[06:57]
CDoty, I use my mobile on occasion
but it's hard work :-(
[06:57]
MichaelDaumonly for reading [06:58]
SvenDowideitwe should start working on listing the impeadences and seeing what we can do to improve things [06:58]
CDotgood idea; it has been in the back of my mind for a while [06:58]
MichaelDaumI started a JQueryMobileContrib and did get some results. but stopped working on that pre cebit. [06:58]
SvenDowideity, i started on something similar [06:58]
CDotdid you jus focus on skinning? [06:59]
SvenDowideitbut decided it was a poor UI for foswiki [06:59]
MichaelDaumthe I decided to add media queries to natskin [06:59]
SvenDowideiti think media queries are a little better than jquery-mobile [06:59]
MichaelDaumCDot, it was more of a test. and I came to a similar conclusion as Sven [06:59]
SvenDowideitbut i've only just bought my first tablet [06:59]
CDottext editing is a PITA, yes, but there are other interactions possible [06:59]
SvenDowideitmobile is even more ew [07:00]
MichaelDaumusing jquery mobile is sort of a paradigm shift for foswiki in some key aspects [07:00]
CDotfor example, multiple choice [07:00]
SvenDowideitjqmobile is very tabbed/ accordian ui [07:00]
CDot"do you approve this document y/n" [07:00]
SvenDowideitwith emphasys on very msdn like ui
whereas i think (atm) that we need something cleverer
CDot, y - thats true of browser ui too
desktop i mean
[07:00]
CDotwell, let's start a Development.FoswikiOnnaMobile topic [07:01]
MichaelDaumlots of things need rethinking on a mobile device: navigation for one. also: uploading stuff like camera pics, voice notes stuff like that competitors do (evernote, ...) [07:01]
SvenDowideitdepends on the goal [07:02]
CDotCDot wants to play with google's voice reciognition API [07:02]
MichaelDaumthe other big challenge is caching: imagine you enter a tunnel in the middle of a foswiki transaction -> your edits better dont get lost in the void. [07:02]
SvenDowideiti'm less interested in kitchensinking like they do, and more interested in the app dev aspects
y, what i hope for, is that wikiapps become standalone html apps that can cope
but i'm dreaming :)
[07:02]
CDotnot so much caching, as continuity-of-session [07:03]
SvenDowideitmore like, local fork with merge for me
very fed-wiki ideal
[07:03]
CDotthat's one way to do it. [07:03]
MichaelDaumEvernote and Catch are the two "wikis" I installed on my mobile [07:03]
SvenDowideiti am avoiding buying a sim card for my tablet atm
so only have network in limited places :)
[07:04]
MichaelDaumwhat concerns me is that on a mobile dev, you even more need to take care of information architecture ... [07:04]
SvenDowideitSvenDowideit mumbles about the idea of havng his slideshow as an offline app on the tablet
MichaelDaum, perhaps
or perhaps thats the thing you need to avoid even more
[07:04]
CDothe's right; navigating lists is a whole lot harder on a mobile [07:05]
SvenDowideitmmm, i find lists the only thing i can navigate on my mobile
if there's more than a list, i'm stuffed
[07:06]
MichaelDaumseen this site showcasing media queries? http://mediaqueri.es/ [07:06]
FoswikiBotSorry, I haven't seen this site showcasing media queries? http://mediaqueri.es/. [07:06]
MichaelDaumlots of excellent examples.
though focused on webdesign
mobile design that is
[07:06]
SvenDowideity, but focussed on _reading_ on mobiles [07:07]
MichaelDaummost of the example sites are read-only sites. so the task is a lit easier. [07:07]
SvenDowideitand that is the easy bit for us [07:07]
MichaelDaum^snap [07:07]
SvenDowideitsnap :(
i want to work on app creation on mobiles
which is even worse
[07:07]
CDothmmm, it's more than just jamming a desktop bruiser into a mobile display [07:08]
MichaelDaumanyway. take a look at Evernote and Catch on your mobile devs. to see what the lead is. [07:08]
SvenDowideitwell, mobiles i think is a too far, tablet tbh
y, or to see what won't work for us :/
evernote i find desperatly painful to use on my mobile
[07:08]
MichaelDaumthe two approaches are (1) evernote-ish / jquery-mobile (2) media queries design oriented [07:08]
SvenDowideitcatch probly won't even install on my ancient iphone 3g
there are other newer approaches to responsive design
[07:09]
MichaelDaumthats what I mean by (2) [07:09]
CDotI have 2 generations of the same phone (ZTE blade) separated by a year; evernote is unusable on one, and quite swish on the other [07:10]
SvenDowideitthey don't use media queries from what i've read [07:10]
CDotthe lesson is; buy a better phone >:-) [07:10]
SvenDowideity
i don't want to :)
[07:10]
CDotah yes, you're an Apple fanboy; you'd need a mortgage to upgrade ;-) [07:11]
MichaelDaumtry this one http://foodsense.is/ and resize your browser window. noice isnt it.
thats the (2) approach: responsive design, media queries, whatever
[07:11]
SvenDowideiti'm not impressed wth my iphone
but i didn't buy it in the first place :)
[07:12]
MichaelDaumnot enuf for the client I lost the pitch for [07:13]
SvenDowideity, i don't like that approach much personally
but it is a good eg of that method
[07:13]
MichaelDaumI like this one too: http://www.antarcticstation.org/ [07:14]
SvenDowideitfor me, any sudden movements are jarring [07:14]
MichaelDaumor http://fray.com/
here's a good article on responsive design: http://webdesign.tutsplus.com/articles/industry-trends/the-state-of-web-design-trends-2012-annual-edition/
not necessarily focused on mobile design, but has got some interesting stuff with regards to grid systems being involved.
well and then there's the "Mobile First" book with its own angle to approach this all: http://www.abookapart.com/products/mobile-first
another pov is that people should not try to deliver the same experience on desktops and mobiles using the same site.
[07:15]
SvenDowideiti'm actually more interested by http://jasonweaver.name/lab/offcanvas/ and the federated wiki ui
rather than trying (and failing) to get a foswiki skin/ui that works for all user content on all device types
as cms style layouts with designed elements that 'fit' is not particularly wiki-ish
mmm, times up, sick girls :)
[07:19]
MichaelDaumjust for the records I don
't _use_ Evernote or Catch
thats because I personally dont think that mobile phones (not sure about tablets) arent really suitable as a knowledge producing tool.
they are more information entertainers
[07:21]
CDotoh, you couldn't be more wrong! data is knowledge; and mobile devices are used massively in data capture
for example "how many widgets do we have in the warehouse?"
or "how big is the floor-area of the client's house"
[07:24]
MichaelDaumare you on your mobile while writing to this irc channel? [07:25]
CDothell no [07:25]
MichaelDaumsee ;) [07:25]
CDotbut I'm not caputuring data. If I had a decent voice app, I might use my mobile [07:25]
MichaelDaumthere is no decent voice app. let alone a voice2text app that doesnt get into my flow of thinking. [07:26]
CDotagreed. But my point is that free text is only one type of knowledge
.... and one that mobiles are bad at capturing
[07:26]
MichaelDaummobile devices make it too hard to produce new knowledge. thats because they get into the way typing. [07:27]
CDotCDot uses his mobile to capture knowledge in the supermarket, by scanning barcodes and then comparing prices between supermarkets
no typing involved
[07:28]
MichaelDaumno you are not producing the knowledge. the database about those products is already there. and you are using your phone to read only.
producing new knowledge means: create somethign not there already.
and text is the most important means to transport it
we cant properly search in voice notes or images
so we are "left" with text
and thats where mobile devices suck
a good knowledge capturing decice ... (or music instrument) ... is one that you can forget while producing your stuff ... it doesnt interupt your flow for technical reasons.
[07:29]
pharveyspeaking of interrupting flow, howdy!
Paul.A has been playing with WorkflowPlugin today. It begins...
pharvey thinks we're wishing WFP had an "allow view" column in the state definition table thingy
[07:34]
Friend of mine does firmware at http://grabba.com/ - warehouse inventory is an old trick tho. [07:40]
Babargmc: did you mergemaster the jail already? [07:41]
CDotpharvey: "allow view" wouldn't be hard; much like "allow edit" [07:50]
pharveyindeed
Are we the first to wish for this? Perhaps we're doing it wrong. Or maybe our architecture is just weird.
[07:50]
CDotnobody has asked for it before
at least, they haven't asked _me_
CDot has gone to take his car to the garage for servicing; back in an hour
[07:50]
***SvenDowideit sets mode: +oooo AlexisHazell CDot MartinCleaver pharvey
SvenDowideit sets mode: +o SvenDowideit1
[07:52]
SvenDowideitinteresting, my andriod tablet's screen is off, but inlike my iphone, its still wifi-ing, as its irc user is still here [07:53]
pharveygreat way to render your phone useless, install skype!
I go from 3 days standby to about 8 hours
[07:53]
SvenDowideitgiggle [07:53]
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pharveySvenDowideit checkout Ohloh's favicon http://www.ohloh.net/p/Foswiki vs http://www.fauxwiki.net/favicons/xico/a2.html [08:13]
AlexisHazellWhat was the end result of the "automatic perltidying of plugins" discussion? [08:13]
SvenDowideitpharvey, watch me not care [08:13]
pharveywatching :P [08:13]
SvenDowideiti can point at lots of things that look similar, or worse, the same :)
AlexisHazell, all plugins will be perl tidied, unless they're not
[08:13]
AlexisHazellHeh, okay. :-P [08:14]
SvenDowideitits going to wreak havoc with my stuff, as i want svn commit to do the tidying for me
but i think Babar set it up to refuse a commit unless its tidy?
[08:14]
pharveyIsn't it opt-in? You need a TIDY file in the root of your extension [08:15]
SvenDowideitah, but when you are lazy
and create a new extension..
you get a TIDY file
[08:15]
pharveyindeed [08:15]
AlexisHazellThe reason i ask is that i've just done a git svn rebase after not having done so for several weeks; and when i've tried to do a git stash pop afterwards, i've got a merge conflict wrt one of my plugins. Looking at the diff, it looks like it might have been perltidy'd.
E.g. "if (defined $maxdepth)" is now "if ( defined $maxdepth )"
[08:15]
pharveyAh. I think the outcome of our discussion was that this should not have happened, but it did... [08:16]
BabarSvenDowideit: CDot did it :) But yes,it's correct [08:16]
SvenDowideitgiggle
Babar, oh dear :)
i'm so distressed that oh, no, er
[08:16]
BabarBabar just enhanced his code, and suggested the idea [08:17]
SvenDowideitSvenDowideit needs a git on commit trigger that runs a perl tidy for me [08:17]
pharveypharvey despairs at trying to write a test using the notes recorded in Item11908 [08:18]
FoswikiBothttp://foswiki.org/Tasks/Item11908 [ Item11908: Foswiki::Form doesn't cope with undefined values very well ] [08:18]
SvenDowideitpharvey, its not that hard i think [08:18]
AlexisHazellSo i'm going to need to run perltidy before i check stuff in from now in order to avoid this sort of issue? [08:19]
SvenDowideitas the defaulting is present in the form obj already [08:19]
pharveyAlexisHazell: only if you have a TIDY file in the root of your extension. [08:19]
SvenDowideitAlexisHazell, yes, if you work on a plugin that has a TIDY file
if it doesn't, then no
[08:19]
AlexisHazellSo my plugin was accidentally perltidy'd? [08:19]
SvenDowideitwell, unless someone else that works on it tidies :) [08:19]
pharveythat's the short version, yes [08:19]
SvenDowideitSvenDowideit whistles and points at the 'guy over there' and quickly leaves the room [08:20]
pharveylol
in case you're interested, there's rather a lot of noisy discussion http://foswiki.org/Development/CodingStandardsDiscussions
I think the current compromise is satisfactory
SvenDowideit, regarding Item11908, are you implying that the line I added should not be necessary? I guess it could be a mongo thing then
[08:20]
AlexisHazellWell, i assume i'm the only one that's worked on it - FSBrowserPlugin. i'm back to a position where i can work on FW stuff again, and i've not yet 'released' the three plugins i've developed as extensions; i've just checked them in to svn. So i was basically wanting to make sure svn was sync'd with my local versions before creating publishable releases of all of them.
i haven't a TIDY file in any of them.
[08:23]
pharveycool. In summary, I guess you could say we accidentally tidied your code, but it won't happen again unless add that TIDY file.
maybe I'm suffering from Item11666
[08:24]
FoswikiBothttp://foswiki.org/Tasks/Item11666 [ Item11666: Looks like the defaulting of checkboxes in dataforms is broken (at least it is not doing what the docco says) ] [08:26]
AlexisHazellSo i can resolve the merge conflict by making my local version the 'canonical' version? [08:26]
pharveyyes. You could just git checkout MyBranch . (I think).
for svn rebase
pharvey falling asleep, probably shouldn't be giving git advice :)
[08:27]
AlexisHazellAs in, after the rebase? 'Cos that's already done. :-) [08:28]
pharveyyou rebased your local branch? [08:28]
AlexisHazellYes; did a git stash; git svn rebase; then tried to do a git stash pop, which was where the merge conflict appeared. [08:29]
pharveyah, sorry. I don't use git stash. Maybe you can revert the perltidy commit? But you can only do that if you're using a repo-per-module checkout
I suppose, alternatively, you could just git checkout 0124adf lib/ (where 0124adf is the commit id prior to the perltidy commit)
[08:30]
AlexisHazellMm, don't think i am .... [08:31]
pharveythat would checkout the files in lib/ as they were in the pervious commit
you may have to commit that first, before popping
if you want me to stop throwing around unfounded, untested and possibly incorrect advice just let me know :P
[08:32]
AlexisHazell*chuckle*
Well, i admit to not wanting to accidentally do something very destructive to my local repo, because i'm not at all a VC expert. So i'm just trying to get my head around as much as possible before taking any leaps. :-)
[08:33]
pharveygac410/George is a heavy git stash user, I'm sure he would know what to do. [08:40]
AlexisHazellOkay, i'll speak to him if i find myself unable to grok a solution myself - thanks for your help! [08:42]
pharveygac410/George is a heavy git stash user, I'm sure he would know what to do.
wrong window!
How long has PatternSkin been busted? WARNING: Cannot find source file for /usr/local/src/github.com/foswiki2/PatternSkin/pub/System/PatternSkinTheme/jquery-images/images/ui-bg_flat_0_aaaaaa_40x100.png
Item11571
[08:43]
FoswikiBothttp://foswiki.org/Tasks/Item11571 [ Item11571: topic creator lack of feedback - the js disables create button until the user makes a wikiword or clicks allow non wikiword ] [08:45]
AlexisHazellNight! [08:48]
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***ChanServ sets mode: +o OliverKrueger
OliverKrueger sets mode: +ooo jast SvenDowideit ThomasPHaeck
OliverKrueger sets mode: +o SvenDowideit1
OliverKrueger sets mode: +o julian_work
[09:10]
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Babaroh btw, I'm updating the packages on the machine, so things might break [09:26]
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CDothmmm, there's no way in the store API to recover old revs of attachments. How did that happen?
Foswiki::Store
[10:29]
FoswikiBothttp://trunk.foswiki.org/System/PerlDoc?module=Foswiki::Store [10:29]
CDotCDot eats his words; it's there, just a bit obscure [10:37]
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jastMichaelDaum_: not sure if Oliver already told you about this... there seems to be a bug in your unicode_substr function (that we talked about yesterday). IMO the encode/decode needs to be swapped. [10:59]
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***ChanServ sets mode: +o OliverKrueger
OliverKrueger sets mode: +oooo gac410 AndreU Colas terceiro
[14:00]
OliverKruegerOliverKrueger is updating the SourceForge project page.
Do we have a feature list anywhere on our homepage?
[14:04]
gac410Hm. Most recent one is the list on Wikipedia I think [14:05]
OliverKruegerInterpret that as a hint for "we should probably have that on our own website". ;) [14:08]
gac410:) [14:08]
OliverKruegerWhich language does "el" stand for?
oh, greek.
very intuitive. ;)
[14:09]
gmcBabar: ehm yes i did mergemaster
i think
it was late
[14:11]
Babarok :)
I'm upgrading the ports
OliverKrueger: ελ for ελληνικά would be more intuitive? :p
[14:12]
OliverKruegerwell, maybe. ;) [14:14]
Babarso el for ellinika [14:15]
OliverKruegerDoes it make sense to add industry sectors to the "intended audience" chapter? [14:26]
***OliverKrueger sets mode: +o Lynnwood [14:27]
gac410That's tough... Can you think of any sector that would *not* be a candidate for a wiki, at least in some form?
Listing sectors means that they would be possibly found by a web search ( looking for a wiki for healthcare ) ... but if "aerospace" was missing, would that exclude anyone?
[14:28]
OliverKruegerhttps://sourceforge.net/projects/foswiki/
We are now listed as "recommened project" at "the other project". :D
[14:30]
Babartsss
bad boy
[14:31]
OliverKruegernow its vice versa. before we just linked to the other. [14:31]
gac410I assume that's some sort of automatic algorithm at sourceforge? [14:32]
OliverKruegersure
okay, enuf updates for now. I actually just wanted to download the upgrade package. ;)
[14:33]
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