#foswiki 2012-09-05,Wed

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WhoWhatWhen
SvenDowideitargh!
what should I call it!
what colour
[01:50]
as much as i'd like to release a CPAN module called Foswiki::Topic::Serialise [02:04]
FoswikiBothttp://trunk.foswiki.org/System/PerlDoc?module=Foswiki::Topic::Serialise [02:04]
SvenDowideitit seems to me like it'd be a bad idea to use the Foswiki namespace, as it overlaps with foswiki :/
or the other option that is coreish would be Foswiki::Serialise
[02:04]
FoswikiBothttp://trunk.foswiki.org/System/PerlDoc?module=Foswiki::Serialise [02:05]
SvenDowideitmmm, https://metacpan.org/module/Data::Serializer looks promising
Data::Serialize::Foswiki::Topic, or Data::Serialize::FoswikiTopic
[02:11]
FoswikiBothttp://trunk.foswiki.org/System/PerlDoc?module=Foswiki::Topic [02:12]
SvenDowideiti hate names [02:12]
gac410Are you going to release through CPAN? [02:13]
SvenDowideity
argh!!
[02:14]
gac410will it be part of Foswiki core? Doesn't that start to fragment Foswiki. Do we now have to become CPAN maintainers? [02:15]
SvenDowideitthats the point
its not part of foswiki core
its a way to load&save topics without loading foswiki
it will essentially be like Foswiki::Serialize::Embedded.pm
[02:15]
FoswikiBothttp://trunk.foswiki.org/System/PerlDoc?module=Foswiki::Serialize::Embedded [02:16]
SvenDowideitbut without the session stuff
if it works well, then we could use it in the core, but thats not the primary goal
if it was the primary goal, then i would use the Foswiki:: namespace
but as its not, i need to find something else (imo)
in part its because i feel reluctant to put foswiki parsing directly into the AnyData cpan module, as i kinda think others might find it useful
https://metacpan.org/module/Tie::File mmm
[02:16]
gac410Hm. AnyData is extensible, why not release a plugin for AnyData [02:22]
SvenDowideiti will be
but i don't like hiding the serialiser that much
so i was thinking 2 modules - the topic reader/writer, and the anydata magic accessor
otherwise anyone that wants to read one simple topic into a hash, has to install AnyData - a rather magical beast
[02:22]
gac410As I've never contributed to CPAN, I'm somewhat reluctant to the CPAN approach. [02:24]
SvenDowideithave you ever used a cpan module?
as _that_ is the audience midset i'm trying to figure out the right name for
[02:24]
gac410Used, of course. Maintained? no. [02:25]
SvenDowideitso what are you worried about? [02:25]
gac410Seeing stuff like http://search.cpan.org/~fayland/Net-SMTP-TLS-ButMaintained-0.20/lib/Net/SMTP/TLS/ButMaintained.pm is a bit off-putting. That someone has to do that crap to maintain a broken module. [02:25]
SvenDowideitare you ignoring my question and worrying about something that doesn't apply to you? [02:26]
gac410(And since that too is broken, if I wanted to fix, would I create Net::SMTP::TLS::ButMaintained::noRelallyMaintained. [02:26]
SvenDowideitSvenDowideit> Data::Serialize::Foswiki::Topic, or Data::Serialize::FoswikiTopic
or Text::Foswiki::Topic, or (insert other suggestion)
i'm not asking if you woudl like to maintain it, or any other work related thing
mind you - i also wonder if you agree with me that we should not use the Foswiki:: namespace on cpan unless it _is_ a foswiki core thing, and we as a group decide to do it
[02:27]
gac410The ....::Foswiki::Topic vs. FoswikiTopic. I guess it depends if there would be other Foswiki:: objects. Foswiki::Attachment for ex. at some point in future.
That's what I don't understand about CPAN. Is it first come first served. Once person "claims" Net::SMTP::TLS for example, is foolishness like ButMaintained necessary?
Ie I don't understand what your claiming the Foswiki namespace does.
[02:28]
SvenDowideitno, its not necessary at all
its because someone didn't understand how cpan works
and didn't bother asking the people that look after cpan
[02:30]
gac410gac410 part of that club. (the not understanding) ;) [02:30]
SvenDowideitmy using (claiming is a furfee, other than in the advisory lock kind of way)
my using Foswiki:: would just make it more complicated if there are namespace clashes
or if someone who also does not understand what they are doing makes a mess
_I_ am not part of that club
but i was curious, so i read the docs
[02:30]
gac410gac410 avoids messes by just not doing :) [02:32]
SvenDowideitfear due to ignorace is counterproducting
knowledge of ignorance is useful
and still, its quite completely irrelevant
[02:32]
gac410yup. Just my ignorance means I don't konw enough to really answer your questions. [02:33]
SvenDowideitthere are silly people like me that agonise for hours (3 so far) about naming
and others that just do stuff
i'm asking for your opinion, significantly as a non CPAN person
[02:33]
gac410BTW I got my modularized LogDispatch working. Though It needs LOTS of cleanup before I check it in. [02:35]
SvenDowideitgiggle
i know that feeling
[02:35]
gac410But the unit tests pass. I expect extreme reactions of nausea from perl knowledgeable [02:35]
SvenDowideiti was pestered for patches while i was working on something - turns out i sent them with lots of whitespace mess [02:35]
gac410I'm honestly giving your Data::Searlize::Foswiki and other suggestions some thought. But I just don't know enough about CPAN organization to make a useful suggestion. CPAN is more of a mystery / necessary evil. [02:38]
SvenDowideitthe CPAN org is really irrelevant sadly [02:39]
gac410I'd lean more toward (wherever)::Foswiki::Topic than FoswikiTopic [02:39]
SvenDowideitexcept as a way to communicate with people that are looking for it [02:39]
gac410By Org, I mean Data::Serialize::Foswiki vs. Text::Foswiki vs. Foswiki:: etc. [02:40]
SvenDowideity - i too lean that way
except for that worry that i'm borrowing trouble that will never eventuate
[02:40]
gac410I guess my question would be are there super-classes in Data:: and Data::Serialize that would make sense to incorporate? Or Text:: etc. [02:41]
SvenDowideitthis module will have 2 methods - serialise, deserialize [02:41]
gac410Right, but can it use parts of the Data::Serialize? [02:42]
SvenDowideitData::Serialize seems to me like a neat way to replicate the pluggable serialisers thing i implemented in Foswiki::Serialise [02:42]
FoswikiBothttp://trunk.foswiki.org/System/PerlDoc?module=Foswiki::Serialise [02:42]
SvenDowideitso its more that Data::Serialize uses it
on the other hand, i can't quite grok the difference between Data:: and Text::
[02:42]
gac410So another question to demonstrate my ignorance. Can I install Data::Serialize::Foswiki::Topic without installing the Data::Serialize module? [02:43]
FoswikiBothttp://trunk.foswiki.org/System/PerlDoc?module=Foswiki::Topic [02:43]
SvenDowideitas i want to go from 'filetopic.txt' -> $topichashref
there are times i'd like to run
rgrep 'sub freeze' CPAN
[02:43]
gac410SvenDowideit: tbh this is probably one that over-analysis gets in the way. Pick whatever strikes you as the way to go. To me it seems like Data::Serializer::Foswiki::Topic makes sense. [02:49]
SvenDowideitsense :)
Text::Foswiki is starting to feel ok
as is Data::Foswiki
many levels of argh :)
[02:49]
gac410Do any of them Text:: and Data:: do serializataion? [02:50]
SvenDowideityes
and so many many other badly squzen names :)
[02:50]
gac410Or do you envision it doing anything beyond serialize [02:50]
SvenDowideiti'm trying for simple atm
string/stream -> hash
i think
[02:51]
gac410Install Random::Name::Chooser and let it decide? [02:52]
SvenDowideithehe [02:52]
ah, there are lots of Text::SomeWikiFormat
so i could probly get away with Text::FoswikiTopic
blimey, they all eally just go from wiki markup to html, that is meh
[03:01]
..... (idle for 20mn)
mmm, Data::Foswiki it is
mmm, Data::Foswiki it is
[03:23]
...... (idle for 26mn)
nite ;) [03:51]
***gac410 has left [03:51]
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SvenDowideitoh george is going to hate this code [05:36]
............ (idle for 57mn)
***ChanServ sets mode: +o MichaelDaum [06:33]
SvenDowideithey MichaelDaum congrats on WebServices::CMIS
you a probly beating my by a week on uploading first cpan module :)
[06:39]
MichaelDaumHi Sven. Yes, yay [06:39]
SvenDowideitdoes it work with sharepoint? [06:40]
MichaelDaumquite a proceedure to get a pause account [06:40]
SvenDowideitreally?
i've had one for many years
[06:40]
MichaelDaumthis is approved manually it seems. [06:40]
SvenDowideitso don't recal at all [06:40]
MichaelDaumI still am unable to connect the pause account to my metacpan account for no good reason
nope. WebService::Cmis is primarily dev'ed against Alfresco.
[06:40]
SvenDowideitkewl :) [06:41]
MichaelDaumsharepoint and livelink and nuxeo and knowledgetree and d4 and you name it all need separate tests [06:41]
SvenDowideityup [06:41]
MichaelDaumso much for vendor agnostic [06:41]
SvenDowideiti have sharepiont, but we'll see if its interesting
probly more insteresting to make a foswiki cmis-alble
[06:41]
MichaelDaumI dont have a sharepoint yet. though it might suffice to get a free office365 cloud account and see if it has got the cmis web part ... which I doublt
cmis _server_ bindings would be fun
[06:42]
SvenDowideitits not expensive to get a technet license - i renew mine everyyear for ~$200 [06:43]
MichaelDaumbut next is to finish the CmisPlugin 1.0 for Foswiki coming with a cmis browser, uploader n stuff. [06:43]
SvenDowideitits much more timeconsuming setting it up :/
:)
[06:43]
MichaelDaumyea...as far as I was able to guess wading thru tech docu [06:44]
SvenDowideitmeanwhile, I'm working towards querying foswiki data using SQL
without loading foswiki >:}
[06:44]
MichaelDaumthe following miles tone for CP will be storing attachments
hard bits are:
[06:44]
SvenDowideitit actually looks like I might be able to replace your DBQuery backend with DBI & a real DB [06:45]
MichaelDaum(1) signing in transparently and remain signed in during a user session [06:45]
SvenDowideithehe - that one can be fun, OAuth hurts [06:46]
MichaelDaum(2) propagate cmis acls from/to foswiki acls ... tough one [06:46]
SvenDowideitna, acl's is easy
mmm, in trunk
[06:46]
MichaelDaumconcepts might mismatch wrt acl-ing [06:47]
SvenDowideitso long as you can ask is_allowed(operation, user, element)
and then cache the result
[06:47]
MichaelDaumwell anyway. I am on skills management the rest of this week. [06:47]
SvenDowideitthen you can do it
lucky :)
i'm on all sorts of silly stuff - like learning the guts of DBI
and maybe fixing some apache bugs
[06:47]
MichaelDaumthe good thing about cmis plugin is that we won't need to impl webdav for foswiki anymore as the real dmses do that better and faster, plus coming with cifs and whatever office connection [06:51]
SvenDowideitexcept that alot of companies don't use alfresco, and we have to testllll
mmm, it reminds me of what i decided last year - it would be interesting to implement foswiki on top of sharepoint
mmm, time to go get the girls
laterz
[06:51]
MichaelDaumthe cmis client bindings will cover sharepoint as well as the major other dmeses. it simply doesnt right now as cmis impls vary a lot ... YAMSS (yet another microsoft standard) [06:56]
........ (idle for 35mn)
jastfwiw I got my pause account fairly quickly
the time in which I've been doing absolutely nothing with it has been much longer :)
[07:31]
MichaelDaumjast, did you succeed in connecting your metacpan with your pause account? [07:41]
jastI don't have a metacpan account, actually
lemme try
[07:48]
Babarthat's a PAUSE account :) [07:48]
jasthey, do I really need an external account to sign into metacpan? lame [07:48]
Babarmetacpan should just sync, so you should just need one [07:48]
jastmetacpan only allows signing in via facebook, twitter, github
afaict
[07:48]
Babaroh. lame :) [07:50]
jastwell at least I do have a github account
MichaelDaum: connect worked
[07:50]
MichaelDaumjast, did you receive the email with that link it it? clicking on it checks me in to api.metacpan.org but my homepage still shows "not connected" wtf? [07:53]
jastMichaelDaum: I did. and the link worked. sorry. ;)
I guess you could just report it as an issue
[07:54]
MichaelDaummiau
argh. when I am logged _in_ the thing won't connect. when I am logged out it does fine logging me in and thus establish the connection
[07:54]
jastworked for me while logged in
weird
voilĂ : https://metacpan.org/author/JAST
[07:57]
MichaelDaumI can't connect my github metacpan account to my pause, but the other way around [07:59]
jasthmm, what happens if I try to use $field_foo_lst in a %SOLRSEARCH% format? [08:08]
MichaelDaumwrt metacpan: I had to disconnect all third party accounts, then reconnect using the emailed link, and establish the connection to all social networks again [08:10]
jastthat... sucks :) [08:11]
BabarMichaelDaum_: I thought you didn't have a github account :) [08:16]
MichaelDaumBabar, of course I have one. That's where some of my js stuff is hosted on, as well as the cmis-perl repo [08:17]
jastokay, so I can't format list fields in SOLRSEARCH, apparently
is there any reason against also indexing the same fields as strings?
[08:23]
MichaelDaumjast, use FORMATLIST [08:24]
jastwell, I'm just asking for efficiency reasons. I really only need the raw value of the form field and if there was a way to do it within SOLRSEARCH, without having to get something to look at the actual topic again, I'd prefer it
this is for a horrible, horrible feature that requires getting a bunch of things from a bunch of topics for almost every page view
[08:26]
MichaelDaumcache it [08:27]
jastthat's the plan for later, yeah
ah well, I'll just not worry about performance for now :)
[08:27]
................ (idle for 1h17mn)
BabarMichaelDaum: so why, last time I've asked you to give me your github account so I can add you as admin of the Foswiki ogranization, you told me you do not have one? [09:45]
MichaelDaumBabar, dunno.
maybe I did not get what you mean?
now: yes please add me to the foswiki org on github
[09:46]
Babarjust give me your username :)
found it. Added.
[09:47]
MichaelDaumthx [09:48]
Babaradded jast in the developers one too :) [09:49]
MichaelDaumBabar, what can I do with it now? [09:50]
Babarfor the moment, pretty much nothing :)
we still need to decide if we want to go full with git, github, or not.
I created the org because Sven asked me to, so that foswiki was no longer an account, but some corporate entity
[09:50]
MichaelDaumyea that makes sense
where would you host the central git repo when not using githup? which disadvantages do we have using github or our own gitweb?
[09:52]
Babarhttp://git.foswiki.org
it's already there :)
(page takes forever to load, so be patient)
I did that last year during/just after the summit
[09:53]
MichaelDaumokay. this is plain uggly.
;)
[09:56]
SvenDowideiti wonder if anyone realised that SocialCalc is in cpan
so we actually have a standards compliant spreadsheet engine backend we could leverage
[09:58]
..... (idle for 20mn)
jastso, in this one wiki I'm getting a javascript error: ReferenceError: foswiki is undefined
presumably some load order is wrong? any ideas?
(the error comes from jquery.foswiki.js)
[10:19]
SvenDowideitsomething is wrong - most likely with your skin [10:22]
jastcache problem, actually
I was hoping it'd refetch the scripts automatically, but apparently the version number wasn't bumped or something
ah well, no big deal
[10:35]
..................... (idle for 1h41mn)
***ChanServ sets mode: +o MichaelDaum_ [12:16]
jast[GitHub] Subscribed to 562 foswiki repositories -- why thank you, Babar ;)
(of course I can still manually unsubscribe from them... one at a time)
[12:22]
ClemensAschenberGood day!
Is it possible to do AccessControl with a Userselection in the form under the Topic
?
So, the chosen user is allowed to see the Topic.
[12:33]
jastyes, if you use SetVariablePlugin
I don't have an example handy, though
Babar: btw, afaik I don't have svn commit access to core. so I probably have more privs on github now than on the official repo. :)
[12:35]
***ChanServ sets mode: +o MichaelDaum_ [12:49]
ChanServ sets mode: +o MichaelDaum_ [12:55]
.... (idle for 19mn)
Babarjast: hum, you can loop throught the github api :)
but the subscription shouldn't give yuo much. One mail per new sub-repository, maybe.
jast: and you do have more privs on github than on core, except... github is not used yet, so... you have power on a sandbox :)
[13:14]
jastyeah, I know. story of my life. king of the sandbox. ;) [13:19]
.......... (idle for 48mn)
there seems to be a problem with removing group members via WikiGroups when users' names don't match their WikiNames (it uses WikiNames in the checkbox elements but Foswiki::Func::removeUserFromGroup expects a cuid) [14:07]
FoswikiBothttp://trunk.foswiki.org/System/PerlDoc?module=Foswiki::Func [14:07]
jastperhaps I should request commit access to core after all :)
I'll open a task about it
[14:12]
.... (idle for 17mn)
Item12067 [14:30]
FoswikiBothttp://foswiki.org/Tasks/Item12067 [ Item12067: Removing members via WikiGroups not possible when login name different from WikiName ] [14:30]
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***ChanServ sets mode: +o MichaelDaum [15:54]
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Zenopus has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) [19:45]
.... (idle for 15mn)
GithubBot[foswiki] FoswikiBot pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/DhkLDw
[foswiki/master] Item12068: fixing docu and wiki app - MichaelDaum
[20:00]
***GithubBot has left [20:00]
FoswikiBothttp://foswiki.org/Tasks/Item12068 [ Item12068: Add XSLT capabilities ] [20:00]

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