#foswiki 2012-11-30,Fri

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kip3fgac410 - I improved http://foswiki.org/Download/FoswikiReleaseViewTemplate to have a different message for beta releases
can you take a look, is what I put OK?
[00:10]
gac410Ah cool. I poked at that one time and was a bit baffled.
Hm... Definitely has some troubles: %TMPL:INCLUDE{"view"}% %TMPL:DEF{"content"}% Foswiki Beta release
There are %TMPL directives interspersed in the topic.
[00:10]
kip3ferr .. see http://foswiki.org/Download/FoswikiRelease01x01x06RC1
to see the template applied
[00:12]
gac410Doh. yeah just figured that out.
That's what I get for trying to figure out Wysiwyg TML / tmce operation
Looks good now that I'm looking at the right thing
:D
[00:12]
kip3fcool
when using 'function topics' that are %INCLUDE from others, they can be made nice by surrounding the %STARTSECTION %ENDSECTION with a <verbatim> tag
but I haven't found a similar mechanism for topics that contain templates
[00:13]
gac410yes. The NewApacheConfigGenerator does that
no templates are best viewed raw=on
[00:15]
kip3fI don't htink that I'm being clear ... [00:16]
gac410Hm. A ViewTemplate for ViewTemplates [00:16]
kip3fhttp://foswiki.org/System/JQueryAjaxHelper [00:16]
gac410gac410 has had his brain fried trying to understand why only *some* CSS classes are picked up by TinyMCEEditor. [00:16]
kip3fis a good example of what I'm talking about
it's a topic that has TML code
intended to be used via %INCLUDE
[00:16]
gac410Yes. That's exactly what NewApacheConfigGenerator does ... though it's transcluded (included from itself) [00:17]
kip3fI haven't found a similar solution, to have a nice topic that contains a view template def.
ok I will check it out
[00:17]
gac410The Template facilities are pretty limited. [00:18]
kip3fI'm talking about a topic containing TMPL:Crap [00:19]
gac410I understand. I don't know of any way to handle like the %INCLUDES you mention.
JQueryAjaxHelper uses that technique in a Helper topic included elsewhere. NewApacheConfigGenerator uses it within itself. Templates... not a clue
[00:19]
kip3fWell ... in trunk System.FAQViewTemplate has SkinTemplateView set as VIEW_TEMPLATE ... hrm
kip3f contemplating adding a 'view source' button
could be nice
[00:30]
..... (idle for 20mn)
gac410 - got a 1.1.5 handy [00:51]
gac410yes I think so ... [00:51]
kip3fcan you please compare System.FAQViewTemplate [00:51]
gac410with? ... [00:52]
kip3fer
never mind
I thought that there was a possible 1.1.6 bug
when in fact
the version of this topic is different in trunk and in r1.1
the version in trunk show exactly what I was trying to do :-)
[00:52]
gac410It uses the template comment %{ ... }% to insert TML. [00:55]
kip3fhttp://foswiki.org/Download/FoswikiReleaseViewTemplate
=updated
er .. perhaps I should change the comment, whoops
one small problem
I'm not in MaintainGroup
yet the topic has
* Set ALLOWTOPICCHANE = Main.MaintainGroup
[00:55]
gac410er... that's not good. [01:01]
kip3fkip3f trying on trunk
same
[01:01]
gac410I wonder if it's because the set is within at %TMPL definition. [01:03]
kip3fALLOWTOPICCHANE
no G
[01:05]
gac410DOH... [01:05]
kip3fthat's why I could CHANE the topic [01:06]
gac410:) [01:06]
kip3fi will try to fix it ... [01:06]
gac410Rather than being in a %TMPL junk definition, it probably ought to be set in the TopicSettings.
Lock yourself out, and then I'll add you to the MaintainGroup
[01:07]
kip3fok tnx
done
[01:07]
gac410Confirmed you are locked out and it's working? [01:08]
kip3fyup [01:08]
gac410Done... you're in MaintenanceGroup
er MaintainGroup
[01:08]
Babarit's typo day today or what? :) [01:09]
kip3fis there some linking of Download web between t.f.o and f.o? [01:10]
Babarmost certainly [01:11]
kip3fI edited the template on t.f.o and my change showed up on f.o [01:11]
gac410It's the same web... yes. [01:11]
Babaronly Main and System, oh, and Sandbox iirc, are different [01:11]
gac410Only the Main, System, Sandbox ... nvm [01:11]
kip3fmmm [01:12]
gac410Trunk doesn't share Main,, so it doesn't have a MaintainGroup. [01:13]
kip3foh, sort of a backdoor [01:13]
gac410Can you edit on trunk? You should be locked out there I think. [01:14]
kip3fNo i tried it .. I tried to edit Support/SecurityAlertForm and I can't
so there is no backdoor
[01:18]
gac410nope. It should hopefully be pretty secure. [01:18]
kip3fbecause the group does not exist, so *nobody* can edit [01:18]
gac410exactly [01:18]
gac410 just doesn't get it. How does TMCE decide which classes to permit in the Class selector drop-down for the Link editor. [01:27]
kip3flooks like it doesn't work, anyweay [01:31]
gac410Link classes are very limited. so yeah, it doesn't do much.
I'm pondering a bug in Wysiwyg I created a while ago. If you edit a WikiWord autolink, it changes the link text, but not the target.
Which for any other link would be expected behavior.
[01:31]
kip3fsure
that's tricky
[01:34]
gac410So my thought was to assign a link class TMLwikiword, and if still set, set the wikiword to the LinkText
So if you really want to "disconnect" the link text from the wikiword, you'd remove the TMLwikiword class when you edited the link.
[01:34]
kip3fthat sounds geeky [01:35]
gac410yeah. But I've not come up with any other ideas yet.
But after I fixed all the links in a topic recently only to realize they were all pointing the the wrong place, figure I need some alternate strategy.
So for the common use. Class is TMLwikiword. You change WebHome to WebIndex ... it remains a wikiword, pointing to WebIndex
If you change WebHome to "Web Home" it becomes a link to WebHome. (because the wikiword isn't a wikiword any more.
But if you really want SomeHome -> WebHome then remove the TMLwikiword class.
[01:36]
kip3fno if you really want SomeHome -> WebHome, then you need to click on the link button and change the link that way [01:44]
gac410Right, but somehow the backend has to figure out which got changed. It can't tell if you change the SomeHome or the WebHome. [01:45]
kip3fcan the insert/edit dialog box inject a special class
that tells the backend that the link was edited with the popup
and the URL target should not be changed
[01:46]
gac410No idea. Probably from javascript. [01:46]
kip3fwell, that's what I would recommend ... instead of making the user deal with "TMLwikiword" class [01:48]
gac410TMCE integration is really challenging, and I'm not especially javascript savvy. May have to wait for pharvey or someone to tackle it.
I know every time I touch TMCE / WYSIWYG ... things get pretty rocky for a while.
[01:49]
kip3fgotta learn somehow :-) [01:50]
gac410Ah... The **Simple** solution - if you change a WikiWord, then click the "break link" button so it gets ignored during save.
Though it would be nice if that could be automatic.
Maybe... if LinkText is a wikiword and Link is a wikiword, then discard the link and save the new wikiword.
[01:52]
kip3fat save time, do you know the original link text & link target? [01:58]
gac410kip3f: no, not without doing a full comparison with the original topic, and that's probably not practical
hm... Maybe that could be stashed in a pseudo-class attribute somehow.
[02:09]
Yeah that works. class="TMLwikiwordWebHome" gets in the link. So on save, if linkText is a wikiword, and link matches the TMLwikiword<link> class, then leave it as the new wikiword. [02:15]
kip3fthen copy the new linktext to the link
that makes sense
I think
[02:18]
gac410Well I don't even need to do that. Just discard the link if the link == the old WikiWord
Though the TML generation code is really hairy
[02:19]
kip3fah [02:19]
........... (idle for 51mn)
gac410Well the basic concept works ... I should have worked on this earlier. We can always do a Wysiwyg release after 1.1.6. [03:10]
........................ (idle for 1h56mn)
GithubBot[foswiki] FoswikiBot pushed 1 new commit to Release01x01: http://git.io/oq2d2A
foswiki/Release01x01 3bd36c8 GeorgeClark: Item11267: Add PatchFoswikContrib to release...
[05:06]
***GithubBot has left [05:06]
FoswikiBothttp://foswiki.org/Tasks/Item11267 [ Item11267: Migrate from subversion to git ] [05:06]
gac410howdy pharvey. I created Item12278, and attached a fix for it. I should have done this weeks ago. Too late now for 1.1.6. [05:08]
FoswikiBothttp://foswiki.org/Tasks/Item12278 [ Item12278: TML WikiWord links need better handling in by TMCE ] [05:08]
gac410Fix for an annoying issue I created with the change to make WikiWords be handled like real html links by TMCE. Result is changing "WikiWord" to "NewWikiWord" results in [[WikiWord][NewWikiWord]] instead of the expected NewWikiWord. [05:10]
pharveyah, I see [05:22]
gac410Now in hindsight, I would have liked to have committed it. When I renamed PatchItem12225Contrib to PatchFoswikiContrib. I went through the Dev docs and updated all the wikiwords, Doh... Caught by my own bug. [05:23]
FoswikiBothttp://foswiki.org/Tasks/Item12225 [ Item12225: Plugins using new version system break older versions Foswiki ] [05:23]
................................................ (idle for 3h58mn)
CDotCDot is stunned at how crap Windows 7 (Starter Edition) is. [09:21]
jastdoes it include explorer? ;) [09:26]
...... (idle for 28mn)
CDotjast: barely. Virtually everything else is an "optional extra, available if you upgrade to full windows 7" - but would I waste the money? No, I'm stripping back the machine and installing Ubuntu :-) [09:54]
jastI'm not too fond of Ubuntu's recent NIH UI redesigns, but I suppose it's better than shelling out money for something you don't want [09:58]
CDotI'm tempted to try one of the other small-machine distys (this is a netbook) but they all have cons.
and I loathe gnome 3 :-(
[09:58]
jastI use lxde these days [10:00]
CDottried lxde it for a while, but it ate too many applications; mplayer, for example, just refused to run any more [10:00]
jastweird [10:00]
CDotyeah, sure I could have resolved it, but just ran out of energy [10:01]
BabarBabar uses awesome. And guess what? It's awesome! [10:01]
jastmy roommate has tried pretty much all the tiling WMs, and he found significant flaws in all of them
I don't know the details, but I think it's related to multi-monitor support
[10:02]
CDotI found problems with HW acceleration on all of them; but then, I have a rather old graphics card on my desktop. [10:03]
Babarawesome's multi-monitor support is great. The only issue are the drivers :)
and it's not awesome's fault if the drivers are crap
[10:03]
CDottoo many nevdors are dropping support for linux drivers these days :-(
CDot is going to try Mint. Gets a lot of positive feedback for this netbook.
[10:04]
BabarMint is great. [10:05]
jastwell, multi-monitor might not be the problem he saw in awesome
I think that was actually a problem in ion3
I didn't pay too much attention; I'm not interested in tiling WMs
[10:08]
BabarI cannot live without one now that I've tried [10:16]
jastI use full-screen windows pretty much exclusively [10:17]
Babarok [10:28]
CDotI use a mix. Sometimes I want to tile, sometimes overlap. [10:39]
..... (idle for 20mn)
SolarWindHello
anyone familar with the FlotChartPlugin
and can give a beginner some hints?
[10:59]
.......................................................................................... (idle for 7h28mn)
XanderLohello
please, can anyone give me some pointers on how to solve the "No SASL mechanism found" error when using email?
the Perl Authen::SASL module was installed
along with apt libauthen-sasl-perl :\
[18:28]
gac410Using CPAN or using Ubuntu packages [18:29]
XanderLoApache restarted... [18:29]
gac410The Ubuntu packages are broken [18:29]
XanderLoyes, I used CPAN to install Authen::SASL
you know that for a fact?
[18:29]
gac410See http://www.foswiki.org/Support/Faq69
I don't run ubuntu, but from we found helping others, and google searches, there were numerous reports of broken SASL,
You also need to make sure that the XS versions are not installed.
Authen::SASL::XS requires a connection to a Cyrus SASL server. This option is not supported by Foswiki.
[18:30]
XanderLookay. actually, I installed libauthen-sasl but it looks like it's libsasl2-2 that I needed. I just installed it and enabled saslauthd.
*crossing fingers* :x
[18:34]
gac410Foswiki does not have the configuration options to connect to an external SASL auth server like saslauthd. What we know works is the pure Perl implementation of Authen::SASL [18:35]
XanderLookay.. still not working. :( [18:36]
gac410From the faq. did you sudo apt-get remove libauthen-sasl-cyrus-perl libauthen-sasl-perl [18:37]
Babar, SvenDowideit you guys just see that? [18:43]
Babarlol
too bad he left
[18:47]
gac410obviously wanted to stay anonymous [18:48]
Babarcrap. And I forgot to pay my fee again [18:49]
hum, anybody who paid by wire transfer?
Babar needs an address... is it registered at Oliver's?
found it.
[18:59]
gac410Is the GA going to be an audio conf - google hangout? Or an IRC channel?
XanderLo: How are you making out...
[19:00]
Babardoes making out means the same thing I think it means? [19:02]
gac410er. making out - How are you doing -
No not the other meaning related to couples
I was definitely not asking about social life.
gac410 doesn't understand the trunk HTMLValidation failures. They work fine for me.
[19:03]
XanderLoI read the FAQ.. removed the broken libauthen-sasl-cyrus-perl and libauthen-sasl-perl, tried to reinstall Authen::SASL. Still no good. :(
It looks like some packages I had to install to get MathMode working, actually broke SASL in Ubuntu
geez
[19:19]
gac410What is the exact failure?
Does it crash, or just report no method chosen
[19:20]
XanderLolet me paste in pastebin... [19:30]
gac410Are you running the Email Test in configure?
That gets some extra debugging info.
[19:30]
XanderLoyes exactly.
http://pastebin.com/WG4uf7h8
[19:31]
gac410Ah... your exchange server ONLY permits NTML auth: AUTH NTLM
GMail for example uses AUTH LOGIN PLAIN XOAUTH XOAUTH2
[19:32]
XanderLoahhhh... that makes sense. The IT department moved the Exchange server, they probably made some changes at the same time. [19:33]
gac410yeah. That would do it. [19:33]
XanderLoThat's why it was no longer working all of a sudden! [19:33]
gac410I hate it when multiple things change at the same time.
I think the key is having them support LOGIN as an auth method.
XanderLo: Definitely something to add to the troubleshooting FAQ.
[19:33]
....... (idle for 32mn)
XanderLo: I've added your particular issue to the FAQ [20:10]
XanderLogac410, thank you for the troubleshooting help. That definitely makes sense since it stopped working out of the blue.
I will create a gmail account and use it as relay.
Seems like the easiest way.
[20:10]
gac410It looks like your connection was plain SMTP though, not SSL,
You'll need Net::SMTP::SSL for GMail.
:) Yeah sometimes getting IT infrastructure to change takes acts of deities
[20:11]
..... (idle for 21mn)
Babaror you just need to know the right people, or their weakness :) [20:35]
XanderLoyeah gac410, I'm now *trying* to install Net::SMTP::SSL but obviously it fails somewhere... jesus
should've installed foswiki on Windows.
[20:42]
gac410Oh.... that's not a solution.
You could try the ubuntu packages ... Or get IT to add the LOGIN mechanism to the SMTP connector on exchange :) Note that if you post the email test log and it traces the AUTH LOGIN ... it's NOT encrypted. Although not obvious, it will expose userids and passwords.
[20:43]
XanderLoyeah. I'll try to get Net::SMTP::SSL installed instead. [20:45]
gac410I'm adding a warning to 1.1.6's configure screen. Yeah I know... it's after the RC was built. [20:45]
XanderLohaving IT modify something is a PITA. [20:45]
.... (idle for 15mn)
stupid PC rebooting on its own... thank god i'm quitting this job in 4 business days. :x
What about SSL_verify_mode? Getting a new error now...
http://pastebin.com/XiuYVCJw
how do i set to SSL_VERIFY_NONE? Edit foswiki manually?
actually that's the opposite.
i need to set it to verify_peer but it's seen as verify_none now.
[21:00]
gac410I've never seen that before. Are you connecting to gmail and getting that error? [21:03]
XanderLoyeah. maybe it's my SSLeay configuration that is broken [21:03]
gac410What version of Net::SMTP::SSL are you running? Here is what I have for my gmail test setup Net::SMTP::SSL: 1.01 installed. Required for SMTP over SSL [21:04]
XanderLosame here. [21:04]
GithubBot[foswiki] FoswikiBot pushed 1 new commit to Release01x01: http://git.io/VtQZxA
foswiki/Release01x01 9683bf5 GeorgeClark: Item11746: Warn that the EMAIL Debug log exposes passwords...
[21:05]
***GithubBot has left [21:05]
FoswikiBothttp://foswiki.org/Tasks/Item11746 [ Item11746: General documentation task for 1.1.6 release ] [21:05]
gac410Looks like it might be a change in IO::Socket::SSL [21:07]
XanderLoyeah. my version might be too new.
crap...
Do you know what file is responsible for sending emails?
i will fix the SSL socket call
[21:08]
gac410lib/Foswiki/Net.pm but it just uses Net::SMTP::SSL so it's probably set down in there. [21:10]
XanderLodo you know where Net::SMTP::SSL is installed? [21:15]
gac410yup.... confirmed. SSL is no longer working with latest IO::Socket::SSL. That sucks
Whereever your cpan installed it. That varies by system
[21:15]
XanderLohmm [21:16]
gac410If the options are passed through, you might be able to push an optin to the Net::SMTP call in Net.pm [21:17]
Addin push @options, SSL_verify_mode => 0; to Net.pm didn't help :( [21:25]
XanderLono, it seems like it's lower level.
inside Net::SMTP::SSL
how does anyone use email in foswiki? no SSL?
[21:26]
gac410SSL is not used all that often. Most probably use a local sendmail. That's the default. Net::SMTP more often used by windows users. Net::SMTP::SSL I added in 1.1.5 to support GMail. [21:27]
XanderLoI see. [21:28]
gac410This doesn't look good. I'm not getting any helpful google hits on disabling certificate verification through Net::SMTP::SSL [21:40]
Babaryour idea of SSL_verify_mode should have worked [21:50]
gac410yeah. I was hoping it would work.
I'm guessing something is not pushing the args hash down to IO::Socket::SSL
[21:50]
Babarthere might be a workaround... [21:56]
gac410I just added a dump of the Arg Hash in Net::SMTP::SSL. no joy
So something is filtering the options.
[21:56]
Babarno, but try something more bold:
my $smtp = Net::SMTP::SSL->new( @options ); # you should have that
$smtp->SSL_verify_mode ( SSL_VERIFY_NONE );
[21:57]
gac410yes sor of $smtp = Net::SMTP::SSL->new( $this->{MAIL_HOST}, @options );
ah.. .okay will try
[21:58]
Babarif I read the code properly (and most likely I don't, as all modules inherit from the next, so it's hard to follow), but this in theory should work [21:59]
gac410nope. Bareword error for SSL_VERIFY_NONE so I set it to 0. But it's not in the options hash I Dumper it just before the carp in IO::Socket::SSL [22:00]
Babarif you put 0 instead of the constant, what does it do? [22:02]
gac410Seem to work, but the verify_mode is not in the arg_hash [22:02]
Babarthat's not a hash, it's a function!
https://metacpan.org/module/IO::Socket::SSL#SSL_verify_mode
[22:03]
gac410Yeah. But the test IO::Socket::SSL is explicitly against the arg hash. And it fails in the new() call, so setting it afterwards never is executed. [22:04]
Babarthe all point is that Net::SMTP::SSL inherits from both Net::SMTP, which itself inherits from Net::Cmd and IO::Socket::INET, but replaces the IO::Socket::INET with IO::Socket::SSL
Babar isn't following, sorry
[22:04]
gac410I put a print before and after the $smtp = Net::SMTP::SSL->new and it's the new() call that crashes. Can't $smtp->SSL ... anything already crashed [22:05]
Babaroh
got you.
[22:06]
gac410IO::Socket::SSL.pm in the configure_SSL routine, tests:;
if ! Server, and ! exists $arg_hash->{SSL_verify_mode}
and $default_args{SSL_verify_mode} == SSL_VERIFY_NONE ) {
carp(
So it has to somehow get into the arg_hash that is passed to configure_SSL
[22:07]
Babarbut that's not going to happen, because https://metacpan.org/source/GBARR/libnet-1.22/Net/SMTP.pm#L40 is how it gets called [22:10]
gac410yeah. so we are toast? [22:11]
Babarwe are. Indeed. [22:12]
gac410I know... We'll make IO::Socket::SSL SO secure, that the only thing that will work is IO::Socket::INET. Ha... we fixed those attacks. [22:13]
Babartime to switch to Email::Send? [22:16]
gac410no idea
I almost wonder if this is serious enough to delay 1.1.6
[22:16]
Babarwhen was it broken?
I mean, when did you introduce ::SSL ?
[22:16]
gac4101.1.5 or maybe 1.1.4 I don't recall now
Email::Send uses Net::SMTP
1.1.3 actually
Email::Send also uses Net::SMTP::SSL. So unless it does some magic of creating the socket first, I doubt it would help
Fork Net::SMTP to be a Foswiki::Net::SMTP that adds in the SSL_ parameters?
[22:17]
FoswikiBothttp://trunk.foswiki.org/System/PerlDoc?module=Foswiki::Net::SMTP [22:19]
gac410This is unbelievable that they would just make a change like that and break such a fundamental application as SMTP [22:20]
XanderLowelp. got it to work with stunnel. [22:21]
Babarwhat's odd is that the guy claims it's not done yet
also, we could use Net::SMTP::Tls
[22:22]
XanderLothanks for the help guys.
using Net::SMTP + stunnel to connect to gmail seemed like the way to go short term.
i'm out. see you.
[22:22]
Babaryeah, that's usually much simpler [22:24]
gac410Babar: Need to deal with supper. [22:24]
Babarsure [22:24]
gac410Net::SMTP::TLS is a disaster [22:24]
Babaris it? [22:24]
gac410No verification, no error handling. Any bad email croaks.
All the addresses in the message must be valid or it dies.
Remember you were helping me to see if there was some way to make our own. a year or two ago. cuz it was so bad.
[22:24]
Babaryes, now I remember
got fooled by something else
https://metacpan.org/module/Email::Send::SMTP::TLS this is by fayland, so this should be good
https://metacpan.org/module/Net::SMTP::TLS but I've never heard of that guy
and the former uses the latter, hence we're toast.
bon app├ętit
[22:25]
.......... (idle for 46mn)
gac410XanderLo: I can confirm, editing Net/SMTP.pm in the system libs, and adding 'SSL_verify_mode' => 0, into the args does fix things,.
This does not look likely to be fixed. Net::SMTP has 50+ open bugs, last release was 5 years ago. there was a dev release from 2010. This is pathetic. :(
[23:12]
Mail::SendEasy looks good, but it doesn't support SSL, and only does LOGIN, PLAIN and CRAM-MD5 So that's no help. [23:22]
rock... hello... meet hard place. I have no idea how to proceed. Anyone updating IO::Socket::SSL from cpan is going to lose email. [23:35]
Babarbut I don't get why
the code I see on CPAN does NOT default to SSL_VERIFY_PEER
https://metacpan.org/source/SULLR/IO-Socket-SSL-1.80/lib/IO/Socket/SSL.pm#L263
[23:48]
gac410No. It defaults to SSL_VERIFY_NONE. And you must explicitly set that.
If it silently defaults to not verify the certificates, that's insecure, so they force you to explicitly set it.
[23:49]
Babardepends what you call insecure :)
it's not safe to man-in-the-middle attack
but at least it's encrypted
[23:51]
gac410well not my definition. but in the opinion of the IO::Socket::SSL authors
I added a patch to http://www.foswiki.org/Support/Faq69 ... and tested that it resolves the issue.
[23:51]
BabarI agree it's not secure, but you should see the real consequences, is all I'm saying
great. f.o is down
[23:52]
gac410I agree with you. I'm not arguing the security or insecurity of the situation. I'm annoyed that such a draconian change can just slip in to cpan. [23:54]
Babarand I agree with you too [23:57]
gac410I need to figure out which version of IO::Socket::SSL added this insanity [23:58]
Babarthe last one doesn't seem to have it, as I showed you [23:59]

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