#foswiki 2013-03-06,Wed

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SvenDowideitand assuming that ldap-foswiki-sympa-lemonsso all work nicely, it makes me think mailcontrib should be simplerifyable [00:00]
gac410"scenario" based list definitions. hard to explain I guess. I really wanted someday to try to establish an equivalence between an email-list == wiki group [00:00]
SvenDowideitexactly [00:00]
gac410So subscribing to a group == subscribing to a list.
And mailing to a group just hands it off to the list sever.
[00:00]
SvenDowideitand then to limit subscriptions to group membership >:}
cos ACL and subscriptions based on username is poo
[00:01]
gac410well, I figured a mapper woudl actually store the gropu in the list. [00:01]
SvenDowideitwhereas using group membership ~~ capability list stuff [00:02]
gac410And with sympa, the list "scenario" defines public, private, self-service, appproval, moderated, etc. [00:02]
SvenDowideithehe - so rather than gorups, one could make a sympa-mapper
so group definitions and related ACL's are based on sympa memberships
[00:02]
gac410So if the list is an "open list" anyone can subscribe, and become a group member. Yes indeeedy. It's been on my wishlist for a few years now. [00:02]
SvenDowideitSvenDowideit recons that sounds neat
have to bug harlan and julian >:}
[00:03]
gac410The issue I see right now is that the definition of a user is rather transitive. If you leave all lists, your user existence evaporates from the mysql database. [00:03]
SvenDowideitthat sounds excellent
as users would like to be able to /leave/ a wiki
[00:04]
gac410They've been gradually moving configuration from flatfiles to the db. I currently run a very old version of sympa. Upgrade was on my list to do first, to get more complete db schema.. [00:05]
SvenDowideitmaybe i should get harlan to /invite you to #ntf and then we can talk up this solution for his needs >:}
nice!
i'd enjoy that too
[00:05]
gac410Anyway, issue with users easily leaving wiki brings back the wikiname reuse issues. [00:07]
SvenDowideitSvenDowideit doesn't think its an issue
as the cuid is unique
and the cuid is what is stored in the wiki history
[00:08]
gac410Sympa uses tt2 for screen layout, and can support adding fields to the db. Hm.... But if the user record disappears, and a new user registers, can't they get the same cUID? [00:08]
SvenDowideitcorrect
cuid (in my world) is often an email address
[00:08]
gac410Which means they "inherit" the other user's edit history. [00:09]
SvenDowideitno
sorry i misread it as 'they can't'
[00:09]
gac410Ah... interesting. That would be much less likely to duplicate. [00:09]
SvenDowideitother mappers i have the cuid is a number - the key in the db table [00:09]
gac410So unless an email address is reused, it will remain unique. [00:10]
SvenDowideitbut that presumes that delete user leaves a row
y, and if the email address is re0used, the internet weeps
[00:10]
gac410y. I think sympa makes the user record just disappear if all list subscriptions (user row dependencies) disappear. I can't imagine that email addresses don't get reused when people change ISPs. etc. [00:11]
SvenDowideitbut its not your problem
as the difference between a user not unsubscribing and changing isp (thus the email is going to the wrong person)
and the user unsubbing and then changing isp
[00:12]
gac410http://foswiki.org/Development/GroupFunctionalityForCollaboration [00:13]
SvenDowideitis essentially mad [00:13]
gac410I've recently changed ISPs and the pain to change email address ... some organizations just don't give you any easy path. I've just given up on some. [00:14]
SvenDowideitand thats why my email addresses have nothing to do with my ISP :) [00:15]
gac410Y. I've got my own domain now, have had it for 5 years or so, but my isp address was in use for a very long time and became widely known. [00:17]
SvenDowideity - i had the same issue 10 years ago :)
luckily, my old isp was bought by my new isp
so i got a little lucky with my legacy
oh wow
[00:17]
gac410:) I changed from dsl to a business cable connection. no email with the new isp. [00:18]
SvenDowideitmy old isp email is even associated with my twiki work
and was still in use when i started work on the twiki debs!
[00:19]
gac410:) [00:20]
SvenDowideitDate: Sun, 27 Aug 2003 00:00:01 -1000
makes me wonder what the even older email addresses are like
[00:20]
gac410I think I had a compuserve [1234,123] style address, tbh I really don't remember what came before dsl. [00:23]
SvenDowideitwow, i just found an old sig of mine on the interwebs
complete with my home fone number
[00:23]
gac410cool [00:24]
SvenDowideitDate: Tue, 9 Aug 1994 13:10:27 -1000
SvenDowideit bets life is interesting
[00:24]
gac410Did you see on p5p list, new version of Encode released. Had a memory leak for each call to encode/decode [00:33]
SvenDowideitSvenDowideit saw the subject and deleted them quickly
SvenDowideit has been debugging a firefox bug lately
[00:34]
gac410gac410 fixes firefox bugs by using chromium, and chromium bugs by going back to firefox. :D [00:35]
SvenDowideitgrin :) [00:37]
harlangac410: just lemme know... [00:43]
gac410harlan, about sympa? [00:43]
harlanwhatever you were chatting about re NTF.
IMO, sympa sucks differently from mailman.
[00:44]
gac410gac410 doesn't know what NTF is.
Y indeed. Definitely more complex.
[00:44]
harlannetwork time foundation [00:45]
SvenDowideitSvenDowideit was gassbagging [00:45]
harlancomplexity aside, features/behavior/look/feel.
ah
[00:45]
SvenDowideitand then gac410 said some very sensible things write user, group and mail mgmt
and he's actually used sympa
[00:45]
harlanwe've been using it for a while, as I wanted to try something other than mailman and after 10? years I got tired of waiting for mm3. [00:48]
gac410yes sympa look/feel are "different" I'm not sure I like the new look that came with sympa 6.x, Still running 5.4.7 because I was afraid to upgrade :) [00:48]
SvenDowideiti like the idea that gac410 has
to use sympa for a combination of user rego/group membership/mailcontrib/subscribe
and then to mush that all into a capabilities type thing
[00:48]
gac410But I'll probably upgrade to 6.1.17 now that I have a new server to work with. I've not tailored the skin, beyond setting colors. [00:49]
SvenDowideitntf also needs to deal with the user&groups being in ldap tho
so i don't know how the subscribing to lists flow changes
[00:50]
gac410The mhonarc archiver is sooo much better than the mailman archiver.
I think sympa can now use ldap backend for user defs' too.
[00:50]
SvenDowideiti'd presume so due to the lemon thing, but i don't know how a new users registeres etc [00:52]
gac410Ah.. the other think that sympa did well that mailman didn't was handle html email and big attachments. [00:52]
harlanhow do I see what versionwe're using?
I see it.
We're running 6.1.9
[00:58]
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SvenDowideitwow.
so one of the biggest bizzareo's i found today
users editing the DefaultPrefs topic
which means the installer fails to upgrade it
thus stuffing up the PATTERNSKINJQUERY_SKIN setting
[02:29]
gac410debian installer checks for modified files? [02:30]
SvenDowideitwhat i don't get, is why that setting isn't defaulted in CODE to something sine
y
it tries hard not to over-write what the users have wrought
SvenDowideit has forgotten many things about the debs :/
i'm bloody tempted to add an 'rm /var/lib/foswiki/data/System/*' to the upgrade path
but that is too scary for me
[02:30]
gac410y, that would mess up any extension settings / extensions done the old way [02:32]
SvenDowideitthing is, this is a setting that didn't used to exist
and was added, some time, with no deafult
so old topic sets die for no reason
[02:32]
gac410y, It was some refactoring between arthur and micha iirc
It's not referenced in code. It's only used in the templates from what I can see.
[02:34]
SvenDowideity, which is fine for new installs
and people that get upgrades done by people that already know foswiki
[02:36]
gac410And it's in a skin, so I'm not sure where you could put code to set it.
y I'm not disputing that at all. Just wondering where you could put a check to verify / default it.
[02:37]
SvenDowideitwhich goes to show its a change that should not see the light of day
SvenDowideit mumbles more
now to work out how to hack their cfg when getting to configure is hard
[02:37]
gac410Probably was a bad implementation to start. [02:38]
SvenDowideitmeh. i'm just complaining because i don't know the configure pwd, and mumble
plus i have to make ...er ... a 1.1.8 deb
[02:45]
gac410well I should make a 1.1.9 due to my "defined @blah " screwup [02:48]
SvenDowideitmumble! [02:48]
gac410Though a debian system getting a perl 5.16 ... I've probably got until the next century :D [02:48]
SvenDowideitmore like 'its all our fault for not testing more'
SvenDowideit is thinking of giving up on debian, which is a very sad thing
slackware perhaps
[02:48]
gac410Well I ran the unit tests on blead, and found one other small issue. [02:49]
SvenDowideitor firefoxOS and ChromeOS [02:49]
gac410gac410 doesn't know. Seems like packaging for distributions is fraught with little traps. [02:50]
SvenDowideitit is, but not doing so reduces the users that will try it out to people who code/admin
if foswiki where plackable....
[02:51]
gac410agreed. very necessary evil. But all the distros have their issues. Choose your "flavor" [02:51]
SvenDowideity, debian used to fit my needs well
now i seem to be working on blead perl/node.js/firefox/chrome
so its fitting my needs much less well
worse - i actually use some blead -chrome features that are in the standard, but not implemented by firefox yet
and i've only just started trying to grok the firefox codebase
[02:52]
gac410generally I've found staying on blead is often better ... provided the project does reasonable testing. I *hate* running into issues that I find were "fixed in release n+2" [02:53]
SvenDowideitSvenDowideit comes from the old-persons idea that using the distro pkg is safer and much more tested
but back then, fixes to the pkg happened faster
[02:54]
gac410well not on blead directly, but on reasonably current. In today's security space, backlevel is often dangerous. [02:55]
SvenDowideitwhereas now, the 'norm' seems to be that devops==install from source
i've been scripting my deployments since 1991ish
so mumble
oh how i like git
oh and wow, git add /* really uses IO
[02:55]
.... (idle for 19mn)
gac410lots of hash calculations and file compressions [03:17]
SvenDowideitand on lots of innapropriate files too :) [03:19]
gac410Ah... I'll bet it's even calculating a hash on /proc ... things like kcore ;) [03:22]
SvenDowideithehehe
now to see how long the commit takes
[03:23]
gac410(I did a rsync the other day and forgot about that ... wondered why it was taking forever) [03:24]
SvenDowideitannoying really
its 2013 and special files are still treated as normal files
SvenDowideit thinks its way past time to de-UNIX UNIX
[03:24]
gac410well some tools can be told to skip them ... but not all [03:25]
SvenDowideitSvenDowideit tries to remember what he was doing [03:26]
gac410gac410 created a small debian vm on the new server. **maybe** I'll try to get a unit test robot running.
Though I'm thinking I might prefer to do perlbrew. Run unit tests on 5.8.8 and 5.16 or maybe perl-blead
[03:29]
SvenDowideitnice
my cronjob to run the tests ==
[03:31]
gac4101) has not been happy ... [03:31]
SvenDowideitmkdir test ; cd test ; curl http://svn.foswiki.org/branches/Release01x01/core/tools/autoBuildFoswiki.pl > autoBuildFoswiki.pl ; perl -w autoBuildFoswiki.pl -sven > autoBuildFoswiki.log 2>&1
and that bootstraps it from nothing, or if its there, svn resets and up's
feel free to use / not use :)
[03:32]
gac410y. I was reading it the other day ... CDot was trying to figure out what was causing the tests to die. [03:33]
SvenDowideitcould be any number of things
its got 2GB ram, so should not be that
heck, i've even given it some swap
[03:33]
gac410I think I'd use git rather than svn. and do a git clean. [03:34]
SvenDowideitthats unusual
actually
[03:34]
gac410no idea. The rel11 tests here run just fine. trunk isn't happy, but nothing fails hard like your tests do. [03:34]
SvenDowideita git bare repo elsewhere
and then a rm -r test and get clone ../gitrepo would work well
its always going to be hairy when we can't use configure, but have to use configure
[03:34]
gac410well for the tests, pseudo-install -A -force seems to be fine. [03:36]
SvenDowideitexcellent [03:36]
gac410Just have to remember to have a backup of LSC before -A -force ... as it overwrites it with a default config.
gac410 is tired of winter. Another major snowstorm coming tomorrow-Friday
[03:37]
SvenDowideitwe've had almost a week of rain
and another week coming up
and we don't even get the fun of being snowed in
[03:38]
gac410:p Broke 2 shear bolts in the snowblower last week. I'm done. [03:39]
SvenDowideitSvenDowideit sends the rain to spain
grin - you need a new hobby
a simpler one
mmm, sitting watching clouds perhaps?
its all up in the air to me?
[03:40]
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***gac410 has left [05:23]
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GithubBot[foswiki] FoswikiBot pushed 2 new commits to Release01x01: http://git.io/TiOxfg
foswiki/Release01x01 d3b77c4 SvenDowideit: Item12415: update the debian package to 1.1.8...
foswiki/Release01x01 a8a1e6c SvenDowideit: Item12415: no such day as Web?...
[05:51]
***GithubBot has left [05:51]
FoswikiBothttp://foswiki.org/Tasks/Item12415 [ Item12415: 1.1.8 debian package ] [05:51]
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SvenDowideitmmmm
anyone here know fcgid and foswiki __really__ well?
I'm wondering if doing something _like_
Alias /foswiki/configure /var/lib/foswiki/bin/configure
Alias /foswiki/bin /var/lib/foswiki/bin/foswiki.fcgi
<Files foswiki.fcgi>
SetHandler fcgid-script
</Files>
has any obvious flaws
heck
even more interestingly
Alias /foswiki/bin/configure /var/lib/foswiki/bin/configure
Alias /foswiki/bin /var/lib/foswiki/bin/foswiki.fcgi
<Files foswiki.fcgi>
SetHandler fcgid-script
</Files>
as the foswiki/bin/configure alias appears to work here too
SvenDowideit looks at pharvey1
and prods pharvey
[06:16]
pharvey1hello SvenDowideit [06:24]
SvenDowideitheya :)
i'm wondering if this might be the simplest fcgid conf
Alias /foswiki/bin/configure /var/lib/foswiki/bin/configure
Alias /foswiki/bin /var/lib/foswiki/bin/foswiki.fcgi
<Files foswiki.fcgi>
SetHandler fcgid-script
</Files>
[06:24]
pharvey1assuming docroot allows pub etc
I haven't been doing apache.conf much :/
[06:25]
SvenDowideitme neither for a bit
and i was just setting up an fcgi, and tried what felt bleadingly obvious
except that it does depend on ordering :(
ie, it won't work if its in xxx.conf
but does work if its in aaa.conf
SvenDowideit marvels
it seems that apache loads conf files alphabetically :)
[06:25]
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ColasSvenDowideit> except that it does depend on ordering :( - it means your configuration is bogus
you forgot to "scope" your *.conf files
[07:56]
jastusually you don't have that problem if everything is in VirtualHost containers [07:57]
Colasi.e. add in them a ServerName aaa [07:57]
jastif it isn't... here be dragons [07:58]
Colasotherwise you load all the *.conf files in the same "catchall" host => conflicts
Note tha things get more complex with https, as apache serves the SSL certificate before resolving the VirtualHost, so you can only have one certificate per IP
[07:58]
jastno, that's no longer true with SNI
(Server Name Indication)
all recent versions of major browsers support that
some older ones that are still used don't, though
[08:00]
Colasah yes (too used to support IE6 on work sites) [08:01]
jastnotably IE on Windows XP [08:01]
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SvenDowideityes, I'm intentionally using unscoped overlapping confs
so while its not 'neat', it works and is useful
Colas 'bogus' would suggest that it should not work
[09:45]
jastokay... no complaints, then, please ;o) [09:46]
SvenDowideiti'm not sure - what should i not complain about? :p [09:50]
jastgood question... how about this: pick something, then don't complain about it [09:52]
SvenDowideitexcellent choice. i resolve never to complain about pharvey's hair [09:53]
jastwe'll hold you to that! [09:53]
SvenDowideiti however will complain very loudly about my need to learn the internals of firefox [09:53]
jastalways a good choice to complain about web stuff [09:54]
SvenDowideitand of the trials and tribulations of using html5 features that are not yet finalised, and only implemented in the development head version of one browser
and of the slackness indicated by my lack of bug fixes to apache-httpd
[09:54]
jastthere's a wonderful solution for that: don't use unfinalized html5 features [09:55]
SvenDowideitno way!
they're awesome, and really nice
mmm, and its raining again
talk about amazing growing weather
lots of rain and then periods of sunny-ness
[09:55]
jastany idea how we can move forward with 1.2? [10:11]
SvenDowideityup, write code, fix bugs
oh and update docco
[10:12]
jastI have no idea what things changed, so I wouldn't know what to update :} [10:16]
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***ChanServ sets mode: +o CDot [11:24]
ChanServ sets mode: +o MartinCleaver [11:36]
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CDotSvenDowideit: awake? [12:29]
***ChanServ sets mode: +o MartinCleaver [12:43]
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dislexihello I'm a beginner to foswiki, just tried installing the debian package, have no idea how to move on from there
is there a tutorial for how to move to the next step
[13:19]
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***ChanServ sets mode: +o Lynnwood [13:35]
dislexihey Lynnwood [13:36]
jastI believe the debian packages installs it so that the wiki is available at http://<your host>/foswiki/ [13:38]
dislexijast: thanks [13:42]
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Lynnwoodhey dislexi and all
Lynnwood welcomes a snowy morning here in NC mtns
[14:02]
dislexihaving an issue when I try to install the wysiwyg editor into foswiki using the debian package, the output from apt get is here http://pastebin.com/RstmBmJA [14:05]
jastSvenDowideit: debian packages still need some love: http://pastebin.com/RstmBmJA
the wysiwyg editor *should* be part of the default install, anyway
[14:11]
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***ChanServ sets mode: +o gac410 [14:44]
jasthi George
I've got no bugs for you today :)
[14:48]
gac410Hi Jan, That's good :) [14:49]
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***ChanServ sets mode: +o MartinCleaver [15:19]
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SvenDowideitmmm, ok, confirmed, i only need the 2 alias lines to use fcgid
so the fastcgiengine docco is horrendously complicated
Alias /foswiki/bin/configure /var/lib/foswiki/bin/configure
Alias /foswiki/bin /var/lib/foswiki/bin/foswiki.fcgi
i wonder if we can re-write the contrib to mention only one of the apache modules
[22:38]
.... (idle for 15mn)
gac410 , do you recal is there are hidden issues with just using those 2 aliases to enable fcgid?
(i wonder if i've asked this er, once a year :/ )
[22:55]

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