#foswiki 2014-05-17,Sat

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WhoWhatWhen
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OliverKruegerHi Padraig. [13:09]
padraig_lennonHi Oliver. I'm early right? My hours are all messed up [13:10]
OliverKruegerThe Foswiki Association e.V. General Assembly will start in about 50mins in #foswiki-association. [13:10]
padraig_lennonok. Thanks. I will attend. I will be offline though until then.. [13:10]
OliverKruegersure. thanks. :) [13:11]
padraig_lennonThere was a rumour going around the US that Google had put in a 10b bid for foswiki. Is this what todays meeting is about?
:)
[13:12]
OliverKruegerlol [13:13]
jomolol ;) [13:13]
gac410Babar must have put in a good word :) [13:14]
OliverKruegerHas he been to Google I/O or something like that? [13:14]
padraig_lennonHe told the guys in facebook about it and google heard about that and hey presto. A 10b bid!
Google didn't know anything about foswiki they just didn;t want facebook getting it whatever it was.. :)
[13:14]
OliverKrueger;) [13:15]
padraig_lennonreally though some crazy money being paid for some companies over there.. e.g. Whatsap.. [13:16]
uebera||10b as in 10 bits or 10BTC? ;) [13:16]
padraig_lennon10 billion dollars. (said like dr evil in austin powers!) [13:17]
gac410M&A frenzy ... probably fueling a bubble that will soon burst. :( [13:17]
OliverKruegerShall be post our bank account details somewhere? ;)
s/details/numbers/
[13:18]
padraig_lennonoculus deal looks interesting though. some key people switching over to that..
Oliver they have all these details anyway.. :) they know before you do..
[13:18]
OliverKruegerOh, yeah, I forgot. ;) [13:19]
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OliverKrueger sets mode: +oooo gmc_ Colas ColasHome padraig_lennon
OliverKrueger sets mode: +oo terceiro uebera||
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OliverKruegerWhile waiting for the GA to begin, every member can check his/her status on http://foswiki.org/Community/CurrentFoswikiMembers HINT HINT HINT ;) [13:38]
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OliverKruegerGeneral Assembly is about to start. Please join #foswiki-association. [13:58]
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Lynnwoodhey all [14:11]
gac410Please join #foswiki-association. Meeting has been called to order. [14:11]
CDot1jast: Please join #foswiki-association. Meeting has been called to order. [14:17]
gac410ping Babar ... If you are awake, ... same thing. [14:18]
OliverKruegerjast is marked "away". [14:18]
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CDot1I found the perfect location for our next camp.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fos,_H%C3%A9rault [15:49]
gac410CDot1: will you create the foswiki calendar on google? [15:49]
Lynnwoodlooks like a very nice location. [15:49]
gac410gac410 mumbles about calendar plugin [15:49]
CDot1even better, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fos,_Haute-Garonne [15:49]
Lynnwoodperhaps i could even convince wife to maked that trip [15:50]
CDot1to create a calendar you need a user id - MichaelDaum, did you already create on on g+ ? [15:50]
padraig_lennonis there a foswiki google account? [15:50]
gac410I have my own personal id, but probably better to have a separate foswiki identity. [15:50]
CDot1CDot1 has to go and enjoy what's left of the hottest day of the year so far.... 25C in the shade today [15:51]
gac410It's a pleasant 15.6 in worcester [15:51]
CDot1I don't think there's a FW account, but I'll take the action to do whatever's needed to create a calendar. [15:51]
gac410okay thanks CDot1 ... [15:51]
Lynnwoodthanks CDot1 [15:52]
CDot1off now. Ciao, all! [15:52]
gac410gac410 needs to go deal with real life as well. Thanks all [15:52]
padraig_lennonok. Going to log off. Chat soon.. [15:52]
uebera||uebera|| needs to tend to the contents of his bar cabinet. cu :) [15:54]
MichaelDaumoffline as well. party time. [16:00]
jomoonly wondering about - will be 1.3, 1.4, … 1.9.9 releases before 2.0?
jomo trying to understand http://foswiki.org/Development/ReleasePlan
[16:03]
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gac410jomo, we need to rework the plan a bit. But 1.2 will be the next major release of Foswiki.
That corresponds to trunk on svn.
There might be a 1.1.10, but it depends on any urgent tasks, and stability of 1.2.0 Nothing defined yet for 1.1.10 stream.
Whether we do a 1.3 or a 2.0 depends on whether there are major enough changes to justify a new major revision.
My guess is that incremental work would probably get a 1.3. If there is a major conversion to utf8 core, that would probably justify a 2.0, but nobody is really working on that yet.
[17:04]
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jomogac410: that’s makes sense… ;) ok - will wait until OperationUnicode begins… from may point of view, here are 3 things what i’m misisng from foswiki - in order of importance: 1.) FoswikiForCMS or FoswikiAsCMS thats mean skin independece 2.) OperationUnicode 3.) PSGI… 1 and 3 even not in plans for 2.0… maybe 3.0 :) :) [17:23]
gac410Things just need committed developers to lead the effort / perform the work.
I'm not going to be helpful with either skin or unicode work.
Don't know enough about psig to even comment.
er psgi
[17:24]
jomo:) old school developer…:) :) /kidding/ [17:26]
gac410"waiting for OperationUnicode" ... unless someone steps up to DRIVE OperationUnicode, it may be a long wait :) :D [17:26]
jomohm.. CDot makes few tries - and never was integrated back into core - probably will need make it step-by-step, using some $Foswiki::cfg{UnicodeCore} = 1.. Foswiki will be still usable as non-utf8, but the done-work will not losing... [17:29]
gac410jast has done work, I think pharvey has a branch on github too.
One huge issue is moving to a modern perl with good unicode, and hopefully locale support too.
[17:29]
jomoand what is a practice? how and when those branches get intergrated back into core? [17:30]
gac410Needs a team effort. Nobody leading so dribs/drabs get done. Needs a concerted organized effort.
We have got to get 1.2 out. That needs to be first focus. There is a lot of work languishing ...
[17:31]
jomohm… it sounds as a joke: The camel is horse what is developed by a big team. :) :) [17:32]
gac410For a project like this though there needs to be more than a solo effort. If we had a sponsor to fund the utf8 or locale push it would help. Some of the dev's need to keep food on the table. [17:33]
jomobut ok - will check sometimes … i don’t know how to help, when nobody “leading” the “OperationUnicode” ;) [17:33]
gac410Well, if we get regular release meetings going, it may help drive forward some organizing. [17:33]
jomoit is conversion to utf8 soo complicated?
from may point of view - it shouldn’t be… ;)
[17:33]
gac410utf8 is not difficult. That's been done by several. Locale's is a huge can of worms. [17:34]
jomocollation and such? [17:34]
gac410Well the biggest issue is that perl is broken [17:34]
jomoperl is GREAT (only need deprecate 5.10… the best is 5.14+) [17:35]
gac410Locales are considered external, and perl taints any regex result that used locale based character classes. Some cases, it is nearly impossible to untaint due to bugs.
jast did a bunch of testing on that, I think he opened some perl bugs.
[17:35]
jomocan’t depend on “use Locale” is will be broken forever...
mainly because system locales are broken tooo….
[17:36]
gac410It's really frustrating, so many things are fixed if distros would use current perl and cpan packages. But we have to support old redhat / centos distros using out of date packages.
we had to revert all our version string work because of centos / redhat
[17:37]
jomoin this case, unicode will net start in next 3-5 years… redhat still 5.8… suse enterprise 5.10 (if i remember good)
s/net/not/
we REALLY need at least 5.12 (but 5.14 will be much better and 5.16 is excellent) :)
[17:38]
gac410Or it's a reason to keep a 1.2.x and 2.0 requires modern perl and packages. But supporting two streams means more work for devs.
Y, as RM, I run unit tests for 5.8.8, and spot check the tests up through 5.19.x
[17:39]
jomoand freezing 1.2 forever (only fix bugs) and develop 2.0 as modern foswiki is unusable path? [17:39]
gac410I would be happy with that. I have little patience for the old long-term-support distros. [17:40]
jomoyeah - it is sure boring test many perl distros… (different modules, some depreceted and soo) … soo boring... [17:41]
gac410It's difficult as well, perlbrew installs latest of the cpan pkgs. I don't attempt to keep them back.
And then you have the @#(*$ distros like debian that patch fixes into out-of-date packages, and don't increment the version. Like the Locale::Maketext fiasco.
[17:42]
jomojomo uses perlbrew too… now 5.16.3
yes - exactly.
the many distros missing a good perl
mean 5.14+
[17:43]
gac410So configure warns that you are vulnerable using out-of-date locale::maketext. Core does extra encoding to prevent the exposure. And patched locale-maketext at wrong version encodes again and trashes the message. [17:43]
jomobut forcing users to install perlbrew is probably impossible and can hurt foswiki..
so… the only solution - wait for 5.14 in enterprise distros...
or - freeze foswiki 1.2 as last stable and last old-school release and in the next year or two develop only with new perl and when distros releases new perl - foswiki will be ready with 2.0 ;)
[17:45]
gac410Well Foswiki 1.2 will still be tested with 5.8.8. If a I18N team forms to drive 2.0 forward, then IMO they can choose a perl and propose it. ... exactly ...
I think the LTS distros using 5.8.8 go out of support in 2020 or thereabouts. :(
[17:47]
jomoomg - i’m 53 years old - will died util foswiki get utf8 support :) :) [17:48]
gac410It's the consultants with paying customers stuck on old LTS servers that are holding things back. [17:48]
jomoyeah - i know…
for me - the only usable way using perl is prelbrew…
[17:48]
gac410yeah, or plenv [17:49]
jomook - thank you for explanation ;) maybe start doing some hacking on 1.1.9 for utf8 - and when 1.2 will releases will backport them.. and ride of all “use Locale” - will never works anyway… ;) [17:52]
gac410If you can test trunk, that would be helpful. [17:52]
jomoprobably i havent access\
where can be downloaded the trunk?
[17:53]
gac410Ah... we have not actually built an alpha package yet, so need to either run from SVN or git checkout. [17:54]
jomomean https://github.com/foswiki/foswiki?
hm… here is some branches - but what is the “trunk” - it is “master”? or?
[17:54]
gac410Foswiki:Development/HowToUseGit or ... [17:55]
FoswikiBothttp://foswiki.org/Development/HowToUseGit [ HowToUseGit ] [17:55]
gac410Foswiki: Development/SvnRepository [17:55]
FoswikiBothttp://foswiki.org/ Development/SvnRepository [17:55]
jomojomo goig to read [17:55]
gac410er Foswiki:Development/SvnRepository [17:55]
FoswikiBothttp://foswiki.org/Development/SvnRepository [ SvnRepository ] [17:55]
jomohm.. that is about today talked on on association chat… dual svn/git repo… [17:57]
gac410I'd like to see us make git the primary repo for foswiki prior or during the 1.2 branching. At some point, Yes. [17:57]
jomojomo need learn about svn/git more… [17:57]
gac410we use svn as our master repository. Github is mirrored. Devs can only commit work back into the SVN repository.
er... Github is a mirror of our svn repo.
[17:57]
jomoso, anybody can checkout the “trunk”?
its ok for me - going to learn how...
[17:58]
gac410There is a tool called git-svn that allows one to locally work in git, but commit work back upstream into svn. It's complex,
Yes trunk is easy to checkout. It's big. All 250+ extensions.
http://trunk.foswiki.org/ runs from a svn checkout of the trunk respository.
[17:58]
jomoit is no problem… i have problem with basic terminology… trunk is something other than “master”… need learn a difference [18:00]
gac410http://foswiki.org is a conventional tarball install of the 1.1.9 foswiki release. [18:00]
jomothe guthub’s “master” branch = 1.1.9 right? [18:00]
gac410git and subversion have different branching implementations. Hang on...
okay. Yes github master branch is equivalent to our svn trunk.
[18:00]
jomoGREAT! - going to checkout… ;)
thanx!
[18:01]
gac410github has a separate concept of repository. where as svn trunk is everything. we will *probably* put non-default extensions into a separate repo, one repo per extension. [18:02]
jomookay - just logged in trunk.foswiki.org - first time - going to look around…
thanx - and bye ;)
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when thinking about utf8 support, here are some decisions what need to make. For example: Foswiki will extends its WikiWord definiton beyond ascii like ÁngryBird (note the accented Á), or will remain forever ASCII only? What is the right method/place to ask? It is not a “proposal” nor “task”… [20:18]
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jastextending WikiWords to arbitrary letters comes with a lot of challenges. for example, grapheme similiarities. in terms of code points, FooBar and FooΒar are different topics...
(in the second one, the 'B'-alike character is actually U+392, a greek uppercase Beta)
malicious people can use this kind of thing to trick users into believing they're viewing something different than they're actually viewing
[20:51]
gac410[[explicitLinks]] ? [20:52]
jomosure - therefore asking … but, the ascii only is really limiting... [20:52]
jastI don't mind forcing explicit links – in our wikis we have noautolink on for everything, anyway – but you can still make people believe they're viewing Official
whoops
you can still make people believe they're viewing OfficialAnnouncements when they're actually viewing OfficialΑnnouncements
[20:53]
jomofor example, in hungarian language: kerek, kérek, kerék a 3 different words (with different meaning)... [20:53]
jastthe former being a topic that's maintained by admins, the latter being fed with bogus information by a bad guy [20:53]
gac410Another issue is languages that don't have the concept of upper/lower case. [20:54]
jomogac410 - they can use wharever want… e.g. asciii only, but i’m sure than im not the only person who would be like to have extended WikiWords… ;) this applies to utf8 topic names, attachments and so on…
especially now, when here are utf8 domain names… limiting web/topic/attachment names to ascii only is (IMHO) not very acceptable in 21th century ;) ;)
[20:56]
jastunicode-aware domain names have exactly the same challenges and they weren't really thought through sufficiently IMO
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IDN_homograph_attack
[20:58]
jomosure, here are many malicious attack (like the dot attack an such), but for example wikipedia using utf8 topic names too.. [21:00]
jastwikipedia has an army of editors, so they don't really have a problem with _anything_ [21:01]
jomoit is a conceptual question. not about the editou counts.. :)
imagine, a topic where will exists a link to wikipedia, like: http://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Škoda_1101/1102 and the local link must be ascii only - not strange?
the english link is utf8 too: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Škoda_1101/1102 ;)
[21:02]
gac410I think you can put anything in a http:// link. [[]] has to pass the NameFilter so that can be configured. It's the auto-linking that's a big issue, regexes have to use Locale's I assume to recognize non-ascii and you enter the world of taint issues. [21:06]
jomoIMHO not with regexes like /\p{Uppercase_Letter}…./ and such.. these are unicode avare regexes...
the “use Locale” is a bad practice anyway...
[21:08]
jastnah, with full unicode support a lot of matching stuff can be done without locale [21:10]
jomoyes - that is about me talking.. [21:10]
jastbut the uppercaseness of a letter isn't _that_ easy when multiple languages get involved
many asian languages don't *have* uppercase letters afaik
in fact even the term 'letters' may be misleading there
so you can forget all about autolinking
[21:10]
jomoand they how using foswiki now? using ascii.. so when doesn;t have uppercase letters will use whatever they want... [21:11]
jastand no autolinking
it's a trade-off. more flexibility – less features.
[21:11]
gac410Not just asian. Georgian, Glagolitic, Arabic, Hebrew, Devanagari, and Hangu, ... according to wikipedia [21:12]
jastI didn't actually do the research. ;) [21:12]
jomosee, if the languahe hasnt uppercase letters, will use ascii wikiwords - as now. i’m taling about languages what uppercase letters has - bau theyre accented… like cyrillic, extended latin, greek and such... [21:13]
gac410So if you do WikiWords using the Unicode codepoint properties, will they sort correctly? I expect if we implement wikiwords using codepoint properties, the very next complaint will be something is not sorting correctly. [21:14]
jomoso the question is remain: why foswiki cant extend it wikiword regex from [A-Z]…. to \p{Uppercase_letter} [21:14]
jastno, sorting MUST be locale-specific
if you have a mix of multiple languages, there's no defined sort order
[21:14]
gac410jomo. Perl 5.8.8. :( Once we abandon that, then it's just a matter of a proposal, and committed developer to do the work.
Foswiki has lots of ideas. Look at all the stalled proposals. Just needs devs to actually do it.
[21:15]
jastwe have at least two good customers running on 5.8.x :)
and the enterprise moves slowly...
at this point one of said customers is beginning to contemplate upgrading to red hat 6
(they're about to release 7...)
[21:16]
jomosee, i asing about a conceptual question - it is pointless to start hacking foswiki for utf8 is there isn’t community agreement in some basic conceptual questions... [21:17]
jastanother customer recently made the switch to internet explorer 8...
yeah, that's true
FWIW in our wikis we already use unicode characters if we feel like it
without autolinking, of course
and no collations
and no sorting
[21:17]
jomoNO! theyre usiing octets “internally”… :) [21:18]
jastpardon me. I meant to say, UTF-8. and links with UTF-8 in them. [21:19]
jomothats right ;)
gac410: for the sorting, here is the “right” module… http://search.cpan.org/~sadahiro/Unicode-Collate-1.04/Collate/Locale.pm ;)
jast: and here is much more such question: for example - NFC/NFD and much more...
[21:19]
jasthmm, the tailoring for German is questionable in that module [21:22]
jomoi understand than the comunity now working on 1.2 - but conceptual questions - need thinking about them... [21:22]
jastI don't know _anyone_ who sorts that way [21:22]
jomojast - whay? SS vs lowercase SS
yast: yocmpu know - if you want correct unicode core - you cant rely on
as shit
[21:23]
jastnobody sorts ä as ae, as that module's tailoring does [21:24]
jomomean: yast: you know - if you want correct unicode core - you cant rely on cmp [21:24]
jastwell apparently they do in phone books, but nowhere else [21:25]
jomoor on inetrnal perlish sort {$a cmp $b}...
hm.. seems here will be no utf8 topic names.. ;) :)
or :(
[21:25]
so, when talking about the unicode core, here (for now) is the concept: wikiwords (autolinking) ascii only, and the change shoud achieve only things like: \w really will match a utf8 codepoint (not like now) - and nothing should be “extended” beyond - so “only” cleaning the core . [21:31]
jomo just downloaded trunk and start hacking some utf8 stuff… :) - will see, how much spagethy is in the core now… ;) [21:44]
gac410Foswiki and it's predecessor has been around a looong time, and has gathered much baggage. [21:44]
jomoi underdtand this and im prepared ;) 30 years old codebase sure not using the most modern perl methods.. ;) :)
jomo much check when tmwiki 1.0 was released…
1998 - it is only 16 years old … ;)
[21:46]
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