#foswiki 2015-03-20,Fri

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GithubBot[distro] gac410 pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/h2bM
distro/master af2bf24 George Clark: Item9693: Update topics with Wysiwyg...
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GithubBot[distro] gac410 pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/haUq
distro/master 532ef76 George Clark: Item8966: Don't let WYSIWYG strip <nop> tags...
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GithubBot[distro] gac410 pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/ha4m
distro/master 8674352 George Clark: Item9693: More release notes updates for 1.2
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TeQuillaaaAheyho all
my ad auth works fine now :)
now i habe a ad group named "WIki"
*have
In this group are employees who are authorized to log into the wiki
can i define this group in ldapcontrib to allow the login for the user?
[11:56]
jxm_Hello everyone. I want to test foswiki, but am having troubles getting started. I installed the debian package under Debian Jessie, but the package seems broken.
I have to manually link the config file for apache, create the tmp directory manually, and now I can get the configure page but /view (or any other script) gives me a 403
I suck at apache configuration rules, and cannot understand this behavior
Permissions are the same for configure and other scripts
And the bin/ dir has Allow for all, ec set in the config
Any pointers/ideas ?
[12:03]
If I add a FilesMatch for /view for example, forcing auth with admin user, then I can login and get to /view
But all CGI scripts without an auth required are giving me a 403
[12:16]
***ChanServ sets mode: +o RaulFR [12:20]
RaulFRhello all :-) [12:20]
***RaulFR changes topic to: Annual Foswiki Association meeting: Friday 20th March 2015 at 1300Z on #foswiki-association ... Release Meeting Monday 23 March 1300Z Channel logs: http://tinyurl.com/7atzrpz [12:22]
RaulFRthe general meeting is on #foswiki-association channel according to http://foswiki.org/Community/AgendaSixthGeneralAssembly [12:24]
JulianLevensCorrect, I've just connected myself [12:25]
***ChanServ sets mode: +o gac410 [12:25]
LavrHello everyone [12:25]
JulianLevensThe meeting convenes is just over half an hour [12:25]
gac410Hi Kenneth [12:25]
JulianLevensHello Kenneth [12:25]
LavrI am setting up a new dev server for the first time in 2 years. [12:25]
RaulFRhello Kenneth, yes me too :-) nice to see you around
gac410, I added the location of the meeting in the channel topic, so that newcomers (like me) don't have to look-up the information elsewhere
[12:26]
gac410Thanks for that, and the reminder too. I was not quite awake yet. Waiting here for the meeting :) [12:31]
RaulFRMichaelDaum, is that string in NatEdit talink about "upload" not to be removed either from the template: https://github.com/foswiki/distro/blob/master/NatEditPlugin/templates/editdialog.natedit.tmpl#L127 (like you did for others) or does it have to stay there to show up in case TopicInteractionPlugin is enabled?
talking* about
[12:33]
gac410RaulFR: That string is conditional if TopicInteractionPlugin is enabled. Line 125 [12:34]
MichaelDaumya should maybe be called "Attach file". a feature only available in combination with TopicInteractionPlugin. [12:34]
GuilainChi all, what's the audience of the foswiki association, only for members ? for potential futur member (like me ?)
TeQuillaaaA, perhaps jast can help you.
jxm_, sorry, but the debian are broken for apache 2.4, we hope to change this soon...
[12:35]
JulianLevensGuilainC future members are welcome [12:37]
GuilainCyou have several other options [12:37]
jastTeQuillaaaA: login is always permitted for everyone getting imported from AD. there is no built-in way to restrict login to users in a certain group. the only thing you *can* do is restrict view/change permissions to users in that group. [12:37]
GuilainCok JulianLevens, i will be an observer [12:37]
jastthe effect of that is fairly similar: people who are not in that group *can* log in, but they won't actually see any of your content. [12:38]
RaulFRgac410, yes indeed it has a %IF%, but it looks like TopicInteractionPlugin overrides the interface anyway, and that some of the strings there where redundant (that was the case for other strings that were taken out, as I understand it, by Michael), so I was wondering if this was the case with these too [12:38]
jastjxm_: in case you're using apache 2.4, its syntax for access restrictions has changed. you can enable its compatibility module, mod_access_compat, to get the old config working. [12:40]
TeQuillaaaAoh okay [12:40]
GuilainCjxm_, other options : take the VM proposed with the 1.1.9 versions of foswiki, install apache2 from wheezy with apt pinning (if you know it) or take a wheezy VM and use debian package
or... do what jast suggest :) (don't know exactly the trouble with apache 2.4)
question to all guru, does any one have made an Dev VM ? (before I made mine)
sharable VM :)
[12:41]
RaulFRMichaelDaum, if these strings have to remain the template, I'll suggest a change to read "Attach a file" (instead of "Upload a file"), as for "Cancel upload", can it be reduced to just "Cancel", unless that Cancel button is really for interrupting an upload in process? [12:44]
MichaelDaumy [12:44]
RaulFRok [12:44]
JulianLevensGuilainC I have a Dev VM [12:45]
GuilainCgreat JulianLevens, which os and sharable (without any personnal information) ? which size ? X or console only ? [12:47]
***ChanServ sets mode: +o OliverKrueger
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[12:48]
TeQuillaaaAhey Oliver :) [12:49]
OliverKruegerHi TeQuillaaaA [12:49]
JulianLevensGuilainC: http://foswiki.org/Development/EasyDevelopment but I need to update the topic, but the VM is vagrant based [12:49]
GuilainCvagrant ?
GuilainC googlize vagrant
[12:49]
OliverKruegerHi Julian
Hi GuilainC
[12:49]
JulianLevensCurrently building on Ubuntu 14
Hi OliverKrueger
[12:50]
GuilainChi OliverKrueger
seems to be fine JulianLevens, apt-cache know vagrant ;)
[12:51]
foswiki_irc3#foswiki-association [12:52]
gac410FranzJosefGigler: I think you can use the /join #foswiki-association command to hop on the other channel. [12:53]
GuilainCGuilainC reading attentively http://foswiki.org/Development/EasyDevelopment [12:54]
GithubBot[distro] FoswikiBot pushed 3 new commits to master: http://git.io/hwEH
distro/master 58d3577 Martin Dahlem: Item13252: Translations updated using Weblate (Danish)...
distro/master 55ca75c Raul F Rodriguez: Item13252: Translations updated using Weblate (French)...
distro/master af33c5b CH yang: Item13252: Translations updated using Weblate (Traditional Chinese)...
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gac410Everyone... Foswiki Association meeting starting very soon in the #foswiki-association channel [13:03]
MichaelDaumWikiRingBot, seen paul [13:06]
WikiRingBotWikiRingBot has last seen PaulDeeEmm 8 Aug 2014 - 04:01 GMT on #foswiki ... left channel #foswiki saying [13:06]
MichaelDaumWikiRingBot, seen phavey [13:06]
WikiRingBotWikiRingBot hasn't seen phavey yet [13:06]
MichaelDaumWikiRingBot, seen pharvey [13:06]
WikiRingBotWikiRingBot has last seen pharvey 17 Sep 2014 - 01:18 GMT on #foswiki ... joined channel #foswiki
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MichaelDaumWikiRingBot, seen Lynnwoo [13:06]
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[13:06]
GuilainCJulianLevens, after reading http://foswiki.org/Development/EasyDevelopment still interested (with lot of question) tell me when it will be available and/or if I can help to something. [13:09]
gac410Colas ColasHome Are you planning to attend the General Assembley [13:10]
***ChanServ sets mode: +o Lynnwood [13:12]
gac410Lynnwood: meeting in #foswiki-association
Ping Colas
[13:12]
GuilainChum but JulianLevens, is it an 64 bits guest ? if yes, vagrant seems to be on virtualbox, which doesn't support 64 bits emulation on an 32 bits host (which is my need, still in 32 bits, not for long time, but still in) [13:13]
JulianLevensI'll have to check [13:14]
***ChanServ sets mode: +o pharvey [13:27]
jastthat's normal... virtualization isn't meant to emulate 64 bit CPUs on a host with a 32 bit CPU
that would require emulation instead of virtualization, which is orders of magnitude slower
[13:28]
CDotjast: not joining the GA? [13:30]
GuilainCyes sure for the performance consideration, but for running only console program is enough. but is it an 64 bits is needed as a requirements fore developing foswiki ?! [13:32]
jastwell I'm not a member, am I...
GuilainC: nah, runs on 32 bit, too
of course you'll need a 32 bit OS for the guest
[13:32]
GuilainCjast, me neither, but i'm in, as observer (speak about the GA) [13:33]
CDotjast: no matter, that only means you can't vote. You can contribute all the same. [13:33]
jastokay...
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pharveyI seem to recall 64bit version of RCS being useful when ,v file grows larger than 2GB [13:53]
GuilainCgood point pharvey... [13:54]
jxm_GuilainC , jast , thanks for the heads up
It makes sense, I did not realise that jessie ships with a version of apache that broke compat
[13:56]
GuilainCjxm_, feel free to come back, depending which solution you adopt
you have official wheezy qemu VM ready to use ;) if it for testing is enough
easy to start, easy to stop,
[13:56]
jxm_yup
But I also need to evaluate the sysadmin aspect of things
[13:57]
GuilainCplease consider that debian package are little bit broken at this time
ah ok
it's easy for sys admin ;)
[13:57]
jxm_GuilainC, when you mean broken, does it mean broken against Jessie only, or broken in general even when used on Wheezy ? [13:58]
GuilainCi've one foswiki install only with debian package
and works well
[13:58]
jxm_I looked at the postinst script and indeed noticed that it tries to install in /etc/apache2/conf.d which does not exist anymore [13:59]
GuilainCwe have some trouble on some details, but is still usable [13:59]
jxm_But I assumed this was a legacy location deprecated even beore wheezy
I would have though squeeze
Also, the postinst script _is_ horendous in terms of error management and test case - this is hackish at best
[13:59]
GuilainCthat's why, in your case, consider to install foswiki from the tarball
it's easy as click on one webpage (the /bin/configure)
extension install by itself
[14:00]
jxm_It tries to do it all, which is the wrong way to do it IMHO. It is better to have specific packages targeted against a specific distro release
And there is no clue whatsoever in the package name or repo as to the compatibility
[14:01]
GuilainCyou just have to maintain external dependencies like perl (and perl module) and some special program (like latex, directedgraph, etc) if neede
neede= needed
[14:01]
jxm_<nod> [14:01]
GuilainCif you like, you can help us to maintain debian package too :) [14:02]
jxm_But installing from a tarball is a big nono
If I was to go down this route, I;d have to repackage it myself
And maintain the package myself
Which I am not too fond of :-(
[14:02]
TeQuillaaaAfoswiki,org down? [14:03]
OliverKruegertest [14:03]
jxm_GuilainC, I already have a hard time maintaining packages for my own software mind you ;-) [14:03]
GuilainCnop TeQuillaaaA
works well
I understand jxm_ ;)
[14:03]
jxm_And the official Debian maintainer of my stuff just bailed out on me :-( [14:04]
GuilainCis close to the same here :) [14:04]
jxm_Mmmhh
YEah, package maintainers who know what they are doing are hard to come by
[14:05]
GuilainCjxm_, do you have information on /etc/apache2/conf.d is a deprecated location ? [14:05]
jxm_Just the overall quality decrease of Debian says it all unfortunately
GuilainC, nope, just me not remembering seing that in a long time
I might be wrong
[14:06]
GuilainCimagine jxm_ debian package of foswiki are automatically build, so our maintener is a big one... but with less of time than before
you afraid me ! :) I don't think so, because is an new location
you just have some syntaxe deprecated
[14:06]
jxm_Well, at least it does not exist in JEssie [14:07]
GuilainCbut I'm only a wheezy user, i don't see sometime the what next [14:07]
jxm_Like I said, I had to link the conf manually into /etc/apache2/conf-enabled [14:07]
GuilainChum... ok [14:07]
jxm_(or something like that) [14:07]
pharveyit should probably install to conf-available [14:07]
jxm_And the postinst script failed silently
The whole part which links the conf is in a [ if -e /etc/$whateverversionofapacheisinuse/conf.d .... block
[14:08]
GuilainCGuilainC has found some ubuntu source
you seems to be right jxm_
[14:09]
jxm_Sat least having and else case here with an exit 1 would have failed the package configuration and let the user know that something went wrong
s/Sat/at
s/and/an
[14:10]
pharveyset -e [14:10]
jxm_pharvey, set -e would not have helped here [14:10]
pharveyah, ouch. [14:11]
jxm_And BTW set -e _is_ already set [14:11]
pharveyI'll refrain from commenting on code I'm not reading then :) [14:11]
jxm_The script just cannot fail if the location expected for the install does not exist, by design [14:11]
GuilainCGuilainC need to be absent for some minutes [14:11]
jxm_Plus, I am not sure about the whole /etc/foswiki having to be writable ...
(which BTW is not taken care of by the postinst script)
In any case, I'll try againt with either apache2 compat mode or a wheezy setup
[14:12]
pharveyyeah, that aspect is interesting. Foswiki wants to be able to change its config and install new extensions etc. through the /bin/configure web ui; the debian packages tread a fairly pragmatic line which isn't necessarily the debian way. [14:14]
jxm_My shortlist is currently XWiki vs foswiki, if you guys have any remarks re. one vs the other, I'm interested :-) (even if you should have a bias towarss foswiki of course :-) )
pharvey, yes, this seems to be a common disease among some webapps to insist on managing their own modules and config
[14:14]
CDotjxm_: unlikely to be anyone here who has a positive impression of xwiki ;-) [14:16]
jxm_XWiki is the same, most CMS I tried (yes WordPress, I am looking at _you! )
too
[14:16]
CDotCDot likes XWiki well enough. Nice people, on the whole.
bit of a farrago, IMHO, but then I'm biased.
[14:16]
jxm_On of the things I need is good WYSIWYG editing for tables
Those are a pain with raw markup usually
IF only because of the lack of visual alignement (well, except in org-mode on emacs but this is an other topic)
[14:18]
pharveyXWiki does have a pretty cool annotation feature (thinking back to when I last evaluated it) [14:20]
jxm_pharvey, what does that do? Annotations like test metadata attached to paragraphs/docs?
s/test/text
[14:22]
CDotjxm_: there *is* no really good browser-based WYSIWYG for tables. The google tools and Confluence are the best I've seen. [14:23]
GuilainCGuilainC advice foswiki or xwiki, but is not the same architecture, that's a real big difference. Depending on what you project and you aim to access to the cgi gateway. For my project, home, and SME without high IT compentencies I suggest foswiki, for the other, xwiki seems to be a good choice, but never use it, and maintain it [14:23]
MichaelDaumjxm_, use Foswiki. For get about XWiki ;) [14:24]
GuilainCMichaelDaum, is very objective :) [14:24]
pharveyin my former workplace, extensibility and customization were important factors. This seemed expensive to do with Confluence and X-Wiki, though truth be told we deployed both Confluence and Foswiki for different stuff. [14:25]
jxm_GuilainC, this is for an SMB to maintain IT docs (tables for racks, IP ranges, VLANs and such), ops procedures, notes on clients, general docs
GuilainC, MichaelDaum is not only obviously objective, but also has a very argumented position ;-)
[14:25]
GuilainCIn this case, I confirm foswiki
I make some freelance consulting, and even if i've choose foswiki for myself and my previous company I'm trying to be objectif
and find the right tools for the right organisation
that's true that table under foswiki is not the best thing, and need to be improve
but the 1.2 version of foswiki soon with the addrowplugin seems to work like a charm
and enjoy myself and my engineer
[14:26]
jxm_GuilainC, up to now, it is my first choice. I'd rather have flat files than a DB-backed system for the scale they're at. Makes data recovery by unexperienced hands more likely in case of a problem
GuilainC, same here, I am an IT consultant. And French too, just like you
[14:28]
GuilainCI think confluence is the nicest, but need money (some) and doesn't support easy customisation or tweak [14:28]
jxm_(I am _guessing_ you're french, but you might be from an other french-speaking country) [14:28]
GuilainCI'm french, as RaulFR Colas (in think) and probably others here [14:29]
jxm_<nod> [14:29]
CDoty, Colas is from Nice [14:29]
GuilainCI write english like I speak french :)
GuilainC asking himself if Nice is really in france or in russia ? ;) (just kidding)
[14:29]
jxm_Yes, aye aveuh noticede
:D
[14:30]
GuilainCoops you to jxm_ ? [14:30]
CDotGuilainC: your English is a hell of a lot better than my French [14:30]
GuilainCto = too [14:30]
pharveyMichaelDaum's JQGridPlugin is pretty nifty for making that stuff sing; and I even wrote a little wiki app to export structured data as CSV file. Doing useful stuff like this is a lot harder to do in Confluence. [14:30]
jxm_Yup, I'm in Lyo
Lyon
Also, I am contemplating the idea to find a platform I could augment in the future
I am thinking structured editing for specialised templates
[14:30]
GuilainCso for IT, supposing you will connect some script and other things to your wiki i think that foswiki and xwiki is really releveant [14:31]
jxm_Like, as I have mentionned, datacenter racks, IPv4 range assignments etc.
There are plenty of specialised tools for that (racktables, monkeytables, GLPI, etc.), but I loath all of those
[14:31]
GuilainCand knowing that modify an file is often easier than database, foswiki is more tweakable [14:32]
jxm_They are either overkill, no user-friendly, broken or overall bloated
I like the loose-coupling of a wiki, because my experience taught me that works best in small to mid-size workgroups
GuilainC, yup, same conclusion I reached, hence my shortlist
[14:32]
GuilainCjxm_, I'm setting up an foswiki web for managing "my farm" (is the name of all my computer and other VM) with integration with somekping, munnin (at this point by simple iframe) and [14:34]
jxm_I used to used trac a lot for many clients, but they usually also have to maintain some code tracking
Which is not the case for my customer at hand
[14:34]
pharveykind of like backup systems. Which is why I'm writing a bunch of btrfs && zfs send/receive/snapshot scripts... instead of picking a bloated mediocre solution and just getting work done :P [14:34]
GuilainCsoon by integrated all e-mail maintenance of my debian(s) into nicely topic page into "my farm" web [14:34]
jxm_GuilainC, yes, I want the wiki I'll deploy to be sort of a portal to monitoring tools too
IDeally, autogenerate pages with links to relevant machines cacti pages, nagios dashboards, etc.
pharvey, I tend to agree for that use case too. rsync works most of the time too ;-)
[14:35]
pharveybtrfs works in seconds, and doesn't smash my servers quite so hard each day :P [14:36]
jxm_pharvey, BTW, one tool I like is backuppc, not bloated at all, actually using rsync + hardlinking under the hood, and easy to browse the backups manually
pharvey, it is true that with btrfs you better have a _good_ backup plan ;-)
[14:36]
pharveyof course you have to be mad enough to run btrfs in production
hehe
[14:37]
GuilainCI have to say, that i don't know how is easy to done what i do (iframe, scripting topic web page) with xwiki, but as an non IP professionnal (I'm a mechanical engineer) is easy to do with foswiki (at least not hard) [14:37]
pharveyhttps://github.com/csirac2/snazzer is the beginnings of my attempt to make it useful for someone other than myself FWIW
it does snapshot measurements too, so you can generate reproducible PGP signatures and shasums no matter what filesystem the snapshots end up on.
[14:38]
jxm_The only core things I don't like so far with foswiki are the horendous name and the fact that it's written in perl
But XWiki seems to be in Java, which is even worse in my book
At least none are bash scripts or PHP apps
[14:38]
GuilainCyou have pmwiki... an old wiki I've use for my phd
is in php
[14:39]
pharveythen there's sharepoint, of course... :) [14:39]
GuilainCeasy to use, old, and french (if i remember well !) [14:39]
MichaelDaumjava _is_ bad as it cares zero about the operating system's own resource management. instead the java vm just locks down memory it might eventualy make use of at some point. I mean things your be worse but not much. [14:40]
GuilainCGuilainC precises, he loves java [14:40]
jxm_GuilainC, argh, did you know every time you advertise a project written in PHP a baby kitten dies somewhere in the world? [14:40]
GuilainCprecises = make some precision
not know about this !
what's afraid you jxm_ in perl ?
as non developer, I can understand most of the time the code
(except some regexp... for sure... but don't have the adequate skills
[14:40]
jxm_GuilainC, I am not afraid of perl, I am allergic to it [14:42]
pharveyjxm_: FWIW the Foswiki codebase style does get influenced by perlcritic tool, we use taint mode, and (for example) external calls are strictly always done carefully via string templating mechanism (unless you're looking at a badly written plugin)
and now that I've been doing python for nearly two years, I miss lexical scoping, and Moose.
[14:44]
jxm_GuilainC, jast et al.: I just attempted an install in a fresh wheezy VM and inded it works right out of the box
Much, much better first impression there
pharvey, I am in any case partial against the whole CGI model
Sooo, the thing is running, where do I get the best WYSIWYG edit module for my client noe ? :-)
now
[14:45]
pharveyyeah, Foswiki has a very long heritage... There's mod_fcgid FWIW :P [14:48]
jxm_And what are those two text fields at the top right of the default page ?
Jump / Search mentionned only in tooltips ???!
Wow, bad default UX
[14:48]
pharveythe default skin needs work
okay guys, I'd better sleep
au revoir, good luck
[14:49]
jxm_And half the left menu items iunder toolbox are not clickable without any hint as of why
(statistics, Users)
[14:50]
jasthmm, that's strange
the "jump" and "search" fields should show that as a placeholder inside the input boxes before you write anything into them
[14:50]
jxm_jast, using iceweasel, not the way it is here
jast, same under chrome
[14:51]
jasticeweasel is what I use, too... but I never use the default skin :) [14:52]
jxm_(actual chrome 41.0.2272.76 (64-bit), not chromium) [14:52]
jastat our company we develop a foswiki variant with a rather more specific use case, with its own skin and everything [14:52]
jxm_Where do I go to get better skins, WYSIWYG modules, etc ? [14:53]
jastthere's really only one WYSIWYG module, TinyMCEPlugin (shipped as default)
in ours we have a different one but we needed a lot of changes to other components to get it to work, and in my estimation it would be an insane amount of effort to support multiple editors with all of their quirks
[14:53]
jxm_I guess I have to enable it in LocalSite.cfg ? [14:54]
jastit *should* be enabled out of the box
though I'm not at all sure about that, after all I rarely touch the default install :)
[14:54]
jxm_jast, does not look like it is
I just get a textarea when I edit my HomePage
[14:55]
LavrI am installing Foswiki 1.2 GIT for the first time. And I have installed Foswiki at least 1 million times before. And I cannot get into configure. I am shut out. And when I was in configure the first time I did not understand what I was supposed to do to save an admin password anymore. This is very confusing [14:55]
jastin that case you'll have to make sure TinyMCEPlugin and WysiwygPlugin are enabled [14:55]
jxm_$Foswiki::cfg{Plugins}{WysiwygPlugin}{Enabled} = 1;
Is that it ?
[14:56]
jastthat's one of them, ye
s
[14:56]
jxm_Was enabled [14:56]
jastLavr: do you get any error message? [14:56]
LavrAccess check on "System.Configuration" failed.
Action "VIEW": Not an admin by user WikiGuest.
[14:56]
gac410Lavr, How did you initially configure. [14:56]
jastjxm_: so, if TinyMCEPlugin is enabled, too, I'm getting the impression the javascript is all screwed up [14:56]
jxm_Nothing about tinyMCE in the config file though [14:57]
jastthat's weird... it's part of the distribution [14:57]
gac410Delete your LocalSite.cfg and visit your WebHome URL.
(That was to Lavr!)
[14:57]
jastwhich packages are you using, foswiki's or from some third party? [14:57]
LavrI tried to do configure like I am used to. But the admin user and admin group part was total geek talk inside configure [14:57]
GuilainCGuilainC check if pattern skin, the default skin shipped in 1.1.9 works well under iceweasel => which is ok, everything is fine [14:57]
jxm_$Foswiki::cfg{Plugins}{TinyMCEPlugin}{Enabled} = 1; <-- Did I get the letter cases right here ? [14:58]
jastjxm_: yes, all good [14:58]
Lavrgac410 then I have to enter all the info again? [14:58]
gac410Lavr When you run your bin/view URL, you will be automatically established as an Administrator. even without a configuration. [14:58]
jxm_jast, still no luck [14:58]
jastyou may want to make sure the plugin exists... lib/Foswiki/Plugins/TinyMCEPlugin.pm [14:58]
GuilainCjxm_, you install deb package ? isn't it ? [14:58]
gac410Ah. You want to migrate. Hm. ConfigurePlugin needs to be enabled. I'll be that's an issue. [14:59]
jxm_GuilainC, yes, on a stock Wheezy VM [14:59]
jastjxm_: the package from debian? [14:59]
GuilainCso normally everything is fine [14:59]
gac410Lavr, I don't think we've done much thought on how to migrate an existing config. As with 1.0.x to 1.1.x., so far it's a reconfiguration. [15:00]
jxm_jast, I did not know there was one [15:00]
jastokay, then what kind of package did you use / where did you get it from? [15:00]
LavrI am not migrating yet. Just setting up for the first time and pure clean pseudo-install [15:00]
GuilainCjxm_, you can contact me in privaite in french [15:00]
jxm_jast, ii foswiki 1.1.9-1 all A Web Based Collaboration Platform [15:00]
GuilainCagree with jast, what did you install exactly ? [15:00]
jxm_From deb http://fosiki.com/Foswiki_debian/ stable main contrib [15:00]
gac410Okay. After pseudo-install, no LocalSite.cfg exists, visit your default view URL. ie, so foswiki can figure out short URL config.
That will bootstrap the settings and log you in as an administrator,.
[15:01]
jxm_root@wheezy:/etc/foswiki# aptitude show foswiki
Package: foswiki
New: yes
State: installed
Automatically installed: no
Version: 1.1.9-1
Priority: optional
[15:01]
LavrI can delete the LocalSite but then I loose all the info I spent 15 minutes typing. And I do not even know what I did wrong. There is a systematic issue that ends up shutting people out [15:01]
jxm_Section: web
Maintainer: Sven Dowideit <SvenDowideit@fosiki.com>
Architecture: all
[15:01]
gac410From there even without an LSC, foswiki will be somewhat functional
??? You edit LSC by hand? Really, gawd I've never tried to do that.
Beyond an occasional bugfix. never from scratch.
[15:02]
LavrNo I did not edit by hand. I used configure setting up all the paths, all the email info (which also failed), some geek configure plugin which also failed to accept any input. [15:03]
gac410If you want to do from shell. after pseudo-install. run tools/configure -save It will bootstrap and prompt you for the configuration [15:03]
GuilainCis ok, jxm_ package debian provide tinymce and wysiwyg plugin by default
so go into a topic, in sandbox for example (wiki rules)
and then create on or edit one
and you don't have the tinymce editor ?
[15:03]
jxm_GuilainC, ok, got it
The configured jQuery version does not exist
[15:04]
GuilainCoh yes, you're right, one from several things to change under /bin/configure at the first debian run [15:04]
jxm_Is jQuwry supposed to be installed on the system?
How do I know which version I should use?
Is it fetched from the internet?
[15:05]
LavrOK I am starting with a no LocalSite.cfg [15:05]
GuilainCi'm setting up to the max version jxm_ [15:05]
LavrPub URL is strange. It defaults to /foswiki/bin/../pub [15:05]
GuilainCno fetch from internet just select the 2.0.2 version something like that jxm_ [15:05]
jxm_1.7.1 seems to work well enough to enable TinyMCE [15:05]
gac410Yes ... that was the best bootstrap could do Seems to work okay. Blame CDot :D [15:06]
CDotYup, blame me. It's all my fault. What did I do? [15:06]
gac410Foswiki 1.2 is intended to run *Without* a admin superuser ID. It's there for us old geezers who still want it. [15:07]
LavrI still do not understand where I set the password for configure [15:07]
jxm_Mmmh, I am pleasantly surprised by TinyMCE table editor, at first sight it seems better than what I expected
Last time I tried this, a long time ago, it was rougher
It even knows how to merge cells
[15:07]
CDotjxm_: the main issues is when it comes to save. It's very difficult to retain all the attributes you may set on the table. [15:08]
jxm_However I do not quite understand how you guys integrated TinyMCE, I though it only outputs HTML [15:08]
LavrAccess to Configure:
{FeatureAccess}{Configure}
What am I supposed to put in there?
[15:08]
gac410It's an expert field under Security & Authentication, Passwords tab. Entered as an Apache APR string if required. Not recommended. [15:08]
CDotI wrote a WysiwygPlugin that converts HTML -> TML (+ HTML for the bits it can't translate) [15:08]
LavrThe help text says: AdminGroup contains no users except for the super admin AdminUser (admin) and the sudo admin password is not set ( $Foswiki::cfg{Password} ) You have not set an admin Pasword. Your AdminGroup contains no users, or this list eliminated all users in the AdminGroup and your current ID BaseUserMapping_333 is not included in this list: You Must have a usable ID in this list to access configure. Do not save the configuration unless you are [15:09]
gac410FeatureAccess Configure.. Is a comma separated list of users allowed to run confgiure [15:09]
GuilainCjxm_, the tweaks i've made for mine was : set /etc/foswiki writable for www-data, and make an chgrp to /var/lib/foswiki to www-data and writable for www-data [15:09]
Lavr"current ID BaseUserMapping_333 is not included in this list" [15:09]
CDotLavr: bottom line: configure protection is done by the Web Server [15:09]
GuilainCjxm_, you have natedit to consider, which is an nice alternative to tinymce, [15:09]
gac410Er ... really? We removed all that. [15:09]
CDotonce you are past that gate, then you must be a Foswiki admin (or be doing a first-time bootstrap) [15:09]
LavrNoone will ever understand what to do here and I am totally lost [15:09]
gac410Or Add a list of users you want to use configure to {FeatureAccess}{Configure} [15:10]
LavrI don't know what to do now?
Which users? I am setting up the thing for the first time. I have no users yet.
[15:10]
CDotLavr: rewind a moment. What are you trying to do? [15:10]
gac410{FeatureAccess}{Configure} = 'KennethLavrsen, JoeUser, BaseUserMapping_333' [15:10]
jxm_CDot, you mean that you convert the HTML that TinyMCE outputs back to wiki syntax ???? [15:10]
CDotjxm_: yup. [15:10]
jxm_jxm_ want to cry [15:10]
CDothey, so did I after I wrote the code to do it. [15:11]
jxm_jxm_ wants to also howl at the moon
(while crying)
[15:11]
CDotbut oddly enough, it works pretty well [15:11]
gac410If you have no users, you can register a user and add them to the AdminGroup even before configure is saved.
Foswiki runs without a configuration.
[15:11]
jastjxm_: I think what happened is this: the package comes with a very basic Foswiki config. the first time you use /foswiki/bin/configure to save settings, all the other defaults from the normal distribution are applied. [15:11]
jxm_CDot, so, let me get this stright: you worte some code to convert styled text to text with semantics. [15:12]
CDotjxm_: the alternative - which I actually favour longer term - is to only save HTML
jxm_: that was the requirement, yes.
[15:12]
jastarguably, the package installer should have done the same... unfortunately, the packages aren't being actively maintained currently [15:12]
jxm_CDot, why not simply fork TinyMCE and have it spit out TWiki ? [15:12]
LavrThere is something wrong in this. You run configure but you should not run configure? No. Foswiki does not run without having saved the configuration once with the paths [15:12]
CDotjxm_: all that would do would be to move the problem into TMCE [15:12]
jastjxm_: we tried that with our WYSIWYG editor... it's not as simple as one might think [15:13]
gac410Lavr, the whole bootstrap process is very very different. You do not need to save the configuration for basic functinoality [15:13]
CDotat some point you have to transform a DOM into TML [15:13]
jastthere's a lot of hairy edge cases with the syntax [15:13]
CDotI found that easier to do in Perl, than in JS [15:13]
gac410If it is not working without LSC, then we need to revisit the bootstrap process. [15:13]
CDotjxm_: lots of hairy edge cases; hence the enormous unit test suite [15:13]
LavrI have been fighting for a long time now. This bootstrap process is making no sense. I have never seen Foswiki that hard to install. [15:14]
jxm_CDot, did you use a proper parser -> parse tree -> Twiki, or just a bunch of perl regexes? [15:14]
jastthe bootstrap process is supposed to make it less work than before. if that's not working for you, it's a bug. [15:14]
CDotjxm_: perl regexes? Wash your mouth out with soap! [15:15]
jxm_CDot, good [15:15]
jastjxm_: the HTML -> TML part is done with a tree parser [15:15]
gac410Lavr. so lets step back. Without a LocalSite.cfg try going to your Main/WebHome URL. Does it work? [15:15]
jxm_jxm_ was afraid, you never know with these PErl hacker types [15:15]
Lavrphone [15:15]
jxm_jast, CDot, hey, I had to ask you know, just to understand what I am dealing with :-) [15:16]
CDotCDot is not a perl hacker. i come from an BCPL/C/C++/Java background. [15:16]
jxm_CDot, with a BPCL background, I guess you _do_ know about parsers the ;-) [15:17]
CDotI forgot Objective C in that list. And IMP. And about 100 other languages :-( [15:17]
jxm_CDot, do you still use Hungarian notation in other languages coming from BPCL ? This is something I have seen a lot [15:18]
CDotjxm_: I wrote my first parser for a structured language in ~1989 so yes, I've had some practice. [15:18]
gac410Lavr, so after your call. 1) remove LocalSite.cfg. 2) Visit yoursite.com/Main/WebHome or whatever url you plan to use. You should see a normal foswiki page, with a banner saying you are in bootstrap running without a config. [15:18]
CDotI tend to follow the standards established by the project. I would still use Hungarian if I felt it was needed. [15:19]
jxm_CDot, 1989? I thought the last BPCL program was written in 1975 ? hehehe :-)
CDot, hey, just kidding there, it's just the kind of die hard habit that people tend to bring over
[15:19]
gac410Lavr: If that all looks normal. Click the "link to configure" in that banner. and then click save config, and then the link on the top of the configure page, return to your site. No need to fiddle with config yet. [15:20]
JulianLevensCDot: ever written a parser in assembler? [15:20]
jxm_CDot, you realise that I am trying to be amusing there, not attacking you, right? [15:20]
CDotdream on. We had a 1,000,000+ line system (for microprocessor layout) in production as late as 1989
CDot is like a duck; water just flows off :-)
[15:20]
LavrBack. Had a phone call [15:20]
jxm_Good. Good Ducky. :-) [15:21]
CDotJulianLevens: simple ones, yes
quack
[15:21]
gac410Lavr Okay Did you see my suggestions ... [15:21]
jxm_CDot, be careful, if you don't stop quacking, you'll type yourself as some python object real soon [15:21]
JulianLevensy, I did some simple ones too, 6502 and ARM iirc [15:22]
CDotCDot went typeless years ago [15:22]
LavrYes. But before - note that on a fresh configure the help text on the top tells you to FIRST run configure and THEN register a user and add him to the AdminGroup. [15:22]
jxm_(not that a BPCL hacker would know much about type though ;-) ) [15:22]
LavrThis is what I did. And I could not add anyone to the AdminGroup. And when I returned to configure it will not run.
So following the text brings you in a locked out situation
[15:22]
CDotactually, my BCPL code was strongly typed. It was just the compiler that wasn't :-) [15:22]
GuilainCGuilainC think about gac410 and Lavr who try to have a technical discussion... [15:22]
CDotGuilainC: fair point. [15:23]
jomo:) [15:23]
GuilainCGuilainC thinks that adding [off] could be useful [15:23]
jxm_Looking at the code base it looks quite literate, as in Knuth Literate PRogramming style. Is that a project coding standard rule?
CDot, hence the hungarian notation ;-)
[15:23]
gac410Hang on Lavr, let me remove my LSC and I'll step along with you. [15:24]
LavrI cannot add the user to the admin group even though I am an admin user [15:24]
jxm_CDot, I agree that even when implicit, strong typing is alsmost as good as compiler-enforced typing. Just like you can write perfectly sane OO in asm. [15:24]
CDotjxm_: http://foswiki.org/Development/CodingStandards [15:25]
gac410Strange Lavr, let me try,. Maybe you've found a bug [15:25]
jxm_jxm_ is looking now [15:25]
CDotit's a balance between being descriptive, without being too proscriptive [15:25]
jxm_Haaa, I thought so
Good, good
I start to like your bunch
Seems that someone here read TAOCP
Good
OK, no need to dig deeper on XWiki then, foswiki seems sane overall
Even though your packaging needs some loveand you don't quite seem to agree that a writable /etc/ directory for your webapp is a problem
[15:25]
gac410Lavr, I just tried worked for me. Hm mysite/Main/Webhome, Click configure, Click Save, Click link at top to return to site. Still an admin
- Click UserRegistration, Register "NewAdmin" visit AdminGroup, Click Add user. Added okay.
[15:28]
CDotjxm_: the packaging has been need of some TLC for a long time. [15:28]
gac410Logged out, Logged in with "NewAdmin" visit configure. works. [15:28]
LavrI had my first user already created earlier. I am removing him now. [15:28]
CDotmy involvement in it was to write the BuildContrib (custom ant-like build system) but no further. [15:28]
gac410Yeah I already had a new users Didn't hurt anything. Just registered a different user and added it to AdminGroup [15:29]
LavrYou cannot register twice because I already had my password in .htpasswd. Need to delete it there too. [15:29]
gac410gac410 just used a different name.
With the default settings, registration works fine without needing email.
[15:30]
LavrErrors adding members to group [15:31]
gac410Okay something broke for you. Do you know what the error is? [15:32]
LavrWhen I look who I am it says AdminUser after the registration. [15:32]
gac410Yes. Your session should be left as the superadmin even without ever loggin in or setting a password. Just don't log out or clear cookies :D [15:32]
LavrI cannot make this work. [15:32]
gac410Lets set an admin password so you don
don't get locked out. Easiest is from the CLI
But NOT edit. hang on.
cd foswiki root && tools/configure -save -set {Password}='asdfasdf'
[15:33]
LavrIf I am AdminUser and I cannot edit AdminGroup then there is a bug [15:34]
gac410Yes. Something is broken in your groups setup. No idea what. [15:35]
LavrI may get started that way but how will the users get started= [15:35]
gac410The intention was to not need the sudo password. Register any user, add them to AdminGroup and configure is available. [15:35]
LavrPlease that I use Apache Auth. Not Template! [15:35]
gac410OR. visit configure and add the username to the {FeatureAccess}{Configure} or whatever it was.
Then they don't need to be in the admin group.
Wanted to accommodate the roles where the wiki admins are different from the server admins.
[15:36]
CDotLavr: that shouldn't matter. Once the auth process is complete and you are identified, the log manage is moot.
login manager
[15:37]
gac410Lavr. If' you've registrered a user, go back to bin/configure, Security & Auth, And add them to the {FeatureAccess}{Configure} list. [15:38]
LavrAh. There is a difference.
When I edit the AdminGroup page with Raw wiki edit I can edit. When I click the "Join AdminGroup" button it fails
[15:38]
gac410Oh... not Join Admin Group button.
There is a twisty to "Add members to the adcmin group"
Administration: Add members ...
[15:38]
LavrYes. That works. But the big fat button that shines in your face does not work. Because I am AdminUser and I try to add AdminUser again. [15:39]
gac410Yes. We need to hide that button for the AdminUser [15:40]
LavrThe help text in AdminGroup still talks about Internal admin login [15:40]
gac410So that still exists, but is completely optional. We need to fix up that text. Thanks. [15:40]
LavrAnd there is a logout link that does not work when you use Apache auth [15:40]
gac410Well none of that is any different from 1.1.x but point taken :)
Oh... actually it should work. That should be the sudo logout,
[15:41]
LavrI am not describing what I see with "almost" fresh eyes
nonsense. I meant I am JUST describing....
[15:41]
gac410Okay. You are right. The logout should be only there for template auth, or sudo.
That page needs some conditional text
[15:42]
LavrBut it does not know that I am template for real because I have not yet saved a configuration
It is only the Apache config that defines the behaviour so far
[15:42]
gac410Er. no Bootstrap sets userid "admin" enabled as the sudo user in your session, regardless of apache, template or anything.
If there is no LSC, then you are the "BaseMapper" "admin" and that "sticks" until you logout, or clear your cookies or browser session.
So when bootstrap first runs, you get admin identity established, and it stays with you while you configure, register users, etc.
[15:43]
LavrAh. That is because it is only the auth scripts that trigger the apache auth
And my configure is wide open per internal IP
[15:44]
gac410Right. You are vulnerable while running in bootstrap. [15:45]
jxm_In the debian repo, there are foswiki-natskin and foswiki-natskinplugin. Any idea what is the second one? [15:46]
gac410On first save from bin/configure, *you* still remain as an admin, but nobody else can gain admin automatically, unless they visited during the bootstrap window. [15:46]
LavrI think you need to find a way to get people out of the logout situation other than delete the config. It can take a good 15 minutes to key everything in [15:47]
gac410Oh. if you have access to shell tools/configure -save -set {Password}='asdfasdf' [15:48]
LavrCan't you hack the config file? [15:48]
CDotjxm_: MichaelDaum can confirm, but I think NatSkinPlugin is a required sub-onent for the NatSkin. [15:48]
gac410Only if you want to edit in an Apache APR1 style password field. [15:48]
CDot^onent^component [15:49]
Lavrgac410 - but could you add the KennethLavrsen to the admins? [15:49]
MichaelDaumNatSki+NatSkinPlugin yes [15:49]
LavrWhat is {Plugins}{UpdatesPlugin}{ConfigureUrl} [15:50]
gac410htpasswd -bn admin asdfasdf admin:$apr1$emKLSA5l$WLcVEybQdlttGUcCFZWUg0 then paste the $apr1$.... part into {Password}
Ah. thats a bug I've been bugging CDot about. Just click the reset to default.
[15:50]
jxm_CDot, MichaelDaum, yes, seems to be so, thanks
I can't find how this works though
[15:51]
LavrAh. OK so that was a buh. I tried all sorts of URLs there [15:51]
gac410or yes, Add KennethLavrsen to {FeatureAccess}{Configure} [15:51]
jomogac410: how foswiki knows, when need DO the "boostrap"? When the LocalSite.cfg doesn't exists? e.g. is possibe disable the whole bootstrap thingy suppying correct LocalSite.cfg to Foswiki before 1st run? [15:52]
gac410Or from shell : tools/configure -save -set {FeatureAccess}{Configure} = 'KennethLavrsen' [15:53]
LavrNow I am getting some massive red error windows all over configure
You must have special permission to use this interface. Denied by {FeatureAccess}{Configure} Setting at /var/www/foswiki12/core/lib/Foswiki/Plugins/ConfigurePlugin.pm line 157.
at
?? What is that?
[15:53]
gac410Are you logged in as KennethLavrsen or still as the bootstrap admin. [15:54]
LavrI am in configure on a fresh browser install [15:54]
gac410Add BaseUserMapping_333 to FeatureAccess
Or go back to view url and log in as KennethLavrsen
[15:54]
LavrClosing the browser. Maybe it is because I added KennethLavrsen
That is an ugly way it does that!
[15:54]
gac410It's why the ConfigureUI warns you that {FeatureAccess}{Configure} is missing your current identity. Hm So BaseUserMapping maybe should be hardcoded to access configure. [15:56]
LavrAnd now I am shut out again. When I reopen configure I am nobody and I cannot access configure. And when I then go to the login link on that error message I open normal Foswiki page where I am AdminUser again??
And I cannot log out
So I can close the browser
[15:56]
gac410Click the Logout url, to clear the sudo login, [15:57]
LavrOK. Yes. I am now KennethLavrsen. So the only way to open configure now is to first authenticate KennethLavrsen in the Foswiki view? [15:58]
gac410Lavr: This is all good stuff. You may be the first going through bootstrap with apache auth.
Yes.
By setting FeatureAccess you made it so ONLY that user can access configure.
[15:58]
GuilainCjxm_, alright with natskin ? [15:59]
***browser has left [15:59]
jxm_GuilainC, nope, I can't find how this works. It shows up in configure, but I can't see hoe to install actual skins, change pages layout, etc. [16:00]
MichaelDaumjxm_, did you * Set SKIN = nat in your Main.SitePreferences ? [16:00]
LavrBut then configure needs to force an authentication itself [16:00]
gac410Lavr: So we need a task. Capture your "first use" experiences, and tweak the messages, Maybe make the sudo "admin" user always have configure access. [16:00]
jxm_MichaelDaum, no. Where did I miss that piece of info.
I mean, did I iss it from the extension homepage or di I skip some other doc ?
[16:00]
LavrI am also nervious on why did I end up by default as AdminUser when I returned to Foswiki? [16:01]
jxm_Sorry guys to be a pain, I am trying to get the feel of how your doc is structured [16:01]
LavrThat sounds like a security deep deep hole [16:01]
gac410You had a session cookie.
As long as your session sticks, you will remain admin.
[16:01]
LavrI closed the browser. That should expire the cookie [16:02]
MichaelDaumjxm_, that's how you switch skins in Foswiki. [16:02]
GuilainCMichaelDaum, has answered :) [16:03]
jxm_When you say Main.SitePreferences, you mean the SitePreferences page of the Main "Web" as you call it, right? So that's the page linked from the "PReferences" menu link? [16:03]
GuilainCyou can do it in an topic for testing purpose
exact jxm_
[16:03]
gac410Hm need to look at that then. For Foswiki 1.2 we enabled IP matching by default, but that should make it *more* restrictive, to prevent session hijacking. And we delete and recreate the session for every logout/login. You never reuse the same session key. [16:03]
jxm_And if I understand, this is a special page which is parsed for the "web" configuration variables to e used? [16:03]
GuilainCyou've several way to configure foswiki,
SitePreference is use for all webs
WebPreference in each web is for the web considered
topic is for topic
[16:03]
jxm_So, in there I do not have already a set SSKIN stanza
Do I edit and create it anywhere, or does it belong in a speciic section
[16:04]
GuilainCjxm_, http://foswiki.org/System/PreferenceSettings
anywhere
[16:04]
jxm_I mean, are the headline titles actually parsed or are those just formatting ? [16:05]
GuilainCjust for human reading [16:05]
MichaelDaumMichaelDaum added the SKIN setting info to the install instructions [16:05]
jxm_GuilainC, thanks, I was still in the 15minutes intor doc :-) [16:05]
MichaelDaum... it was definitely missing [16:05]
jxm_MichaelDaum, thanks for the ones coming after me ;-) [16:05]
gac410Lavr: Not sure what is going on . The default is that cookies should expire when browser is closed. Maybe we have a bug there too. [16:06]
jxm_MichaelDaum, and if I may, when I installed the debian package, I found nowhere the expected URL under which I should see something [16:06]
LavrIt looks like Google Chrome remembers the password for AdminUser and re-applies it. When I do Firefox it prompts me even when I ask it to remember. You always have to click a submit button in Firefox. It is new to me that Chrome did not do that [16:06]
jxm_I tried many things and failed (as I installed under JEssie/apache 2.4 with your postinst debian script failing silently in that ocntext), but it would have been nice to have pointers to the basics: [16:07]
MichaelDaumjxm_, the debian packages are busted. we have a stream of bug reports all related to them being miss-packaged. [16:07]
LavrWhen I changed user in Chrome. And then closed the browser - it comes up right away as KennethLavrsen [16:07]
jxm_XXXX/foswiki
XXXX/foswiki/configure
[16:07]
LavrSO it looks OK. It is a Chrome special. [16:07]
GuilainCjxm_, SKIN setting is not exclusive, you can have more than one value for skin [16:07]
jxm_and the expected redirecting from /foswiki to /foswiki/bin/view [16:07]
tewardhey i'm getting a weird thing where foswiki is complaining about content security policy and not being able to access its own data (such as CSS, etc.). anyone ever seen this issue before? [16:07]
MichaelDaumthe debian packages are generated automatically on Sven Dowideit's server. He hasn't been looking after the related bug reports lately. [16:08]
GuilainCjxm_, for example ---* Set SKIN = skin1, skin2 (- is for space) [16:08]
jxm_GuilainC, ok, each macro aplies a skin in the order the macros appear in the page, and styles get applied in that order. Correct? [16:08]
gac410I just tried it in Firefox. Configured. remain logged in as sudo admin, closed browser, opened, still logged in. [16:08]
GuilainChum don't know for the order ;) [16:08]
gac410So the "Cookies cleared on browser close" is not working. [16:08]
GuilainCjust each skin can only add a part [16:08]
jxm_MichaelDaum, this is ok. But at least having those bits of info on the web page referencing those packages would have been a huge help
I guess it was AlternateInstalls or something
[16:08]
gac410Maybe we are missing some magic in the cookie settings. This isn't very good. [16:09]
LavrIt seems to work in Firefox. [16:09]
teward(or rather, that's the web browser complaining, but still) [16:09]
***teward has left "Leaving" [16:09]
LavrChrome never asks for username and password. It just opens. [16:10]
gac410Didn't work for me in Firefox. Maybe it's my FF config. Needs some more investigation for sure. [16:10]
GuilainCteward seems to have other issue... that only browser css complaints [16:10]
jxm_Hahaha. I did set SKIN = nat and got ALERT! Warning: your browser isn't supported. Please install a modern one, like Firefox, Opera, Safari, Chrome or the latest Internet Explorer. Thank you! [16:10]
MichaelDaumyw [16:10]
jxm_(with a page seemingly without any CSS) [16:10]
LavrIt means that it is hard in Chrome to change user with ApacheLogin. It is really an odd behaviour [16:11]
jxm_(and lots of unexpanded variable names)
(like $title and such)
[16:11]
MichaelDaumas I said: the debian packages are busted [16:11]
GuilainCjxm_, not normal... [16:11]
jxm_jxm_ is using iceweasel [16:11]
GuilainCGuilainC too [16:11]
LavrGoogle Chrome behaves the same on my good old F1.9 [16:12]
jxm_SAme happens in chrome [16:12]
GuilainCfirst jxm_ natskin doesn't link to weblinkplugin which is require for natskin
then it's come from you install
[16:12]
jxm_Being advised to use the latest internet explorer is not the kind of advice I was looking for, mind you ;-) [16:12]
gac410Hm On ff, I have "privacy.ClearOnShutdown.cooikes" set to true, which is the default. But my foswiki session cookie is not cleared :( [16:13]
GuilainCdid you make an the chgrp www-data /var/lib/foswiki ?
ah !
i've change something unclear in debian package...
[16:13]
MichaelDaumjxm_, when you've got no css or js then your install is broken. don't worry about the browser warning unless you fixed that. [16:13]
GuilainClet me find my notes [16:13]
jxm_GuilainC, ok, you got me there. You told me to do it and I did not. Well, I did, but on my JEssie VM, not this one (Wheezy). Lemme check [16:13]
GuilainCfirst do the check, and then there are something wrong in debian package [16:14]
jxm_Was already ok from the packaged install: drwxr-xr-x 10 www-data www-data 4096 Mar 20 16:45 foswiki [16:14]
GuilainCwhich force to not use embedded perl module (perl module include in extension)
Knowing MichaelDaum, there are probably one or two require...
jxm_, good :)
GuilainC looking for the file to change...
[16:14]
jxm_ok, I removed the Set SKIN - nat line directly from /var/lib/foswiki/data/Main/WebPreferences.txt and I have my CSS back
So this happens when natskin gets toggled
[16:17]
GuilainCjxm_, I'm suspect two thing often with debian package, there are missing dependencies
but don't worry it's easy to fixe
let me give my advice
in foswikidir/bin directory
[16:18]
jxm_huh, plenty of *,v files
Are you using CVS ?
[16:18]
GuilainCthere is the file localsite.cfg
*,v is the rcs store
[16:18]
jxm_duh, I meant RCS, yes, not CVS
ok, so you delegated the versionning to rcs
Why not
[16:19]
GuilainCGuilainC doesn't know the detail, the only things he knows is : that's work !
so you need to modify localsite.cfg
[16:19]
jxm_GuilainC, LocalLib.cfg yes, localsite.cfg nope [16:20]
GuilainCby...
yes localib
[16:20]
jxm_ok [16:20]
GuilainCone screen to window
to = two
[16:20]
gac410Lavr, Firefox 34.4.0 is definitely not clearing the Foswiki session cookie during shutdown. Something isn't right. The cookie shows as "At end of session" in the cookie info panel. So this is a FF bug, not Foswiki. [16:20]
jxm_WE probably do not have the same size of terminals
Let me look for this
[16:20]
GuilainCand comment $CPANBASE = 1;
ligne 47
[16:20]
LavrIt works in my FF but not in Chrome. Strange. [16:21]
GuilainCit will allow/enable the perl module which are include in extension
and then, take any topics, and add ?skin=nat at the end of url
[16:21]
LavrProbably NICE for most users because they never login as anything else than themselves. But if an admin has a normal and an admin account and uses ApacheAuth then you need to go a little further to switch user [16:22]
GuilainCis the same that "---* Set SKIN = nat" but is quicker
GuilainC asking himself if quicker and quickest is english ?
[16:22]
jxm_GuilainC, commented out CPANBASE, still broken CSS when enabling natskin [16:23]
LavrThe logout link actually works on AdminGroup - but when you then want to re-login Chrome never asks for user name. So you have to blast away the password first. CHrome is nice but sometimes TOO nice. [16:24]
jxm_Aren't there any useful logs ? [16:24]
GuilainCyes sure jxm_ !
:)
[16:24]
jxm_I am looking at /var/log/foswiki, but nothing useful there [16:24]
GuilainCin /var/log/foswiki
oups
:)
[16:24]
gac410So I tried this on Konqueor and it won't save the config. The Saving box opens, but never actually saves anything. No js errors, Just doens't work. :( [16:25]
LavrIn subversion I could delete a file I had edited as an experiment and a simple svn update would restore the deleted file. I assume I can do similar in git. How? [16:25]
GuilainCso check the perl dependency of natskin and natskinplugin [16:25]
jxm_GuilainC, only the ation performs (as in the timestamped web dispatch), nothing more
No code-execution level error messages
(those actually seem to show up in the broken HTML)
[16:25]
gac410Lavr Git checkout path/to/file [16:26]
jxm_s/ation/action [16:26]
gac410If you want to revert ALL local changes to tracked files. git reset HEAD --hard [16:26]
LavrTypically I want to do it in current directory [16:27]
gac410git checkout file [16:27]
Lavrso it cannot guess like SVN which one I just deleted [16:27]
GuilainCjxm_, what's suprise me, is normally is work more or less out of the box, you don't need to modify code, [16:27]
gac410git status -uno . [16:27]
GuilainCjust install the good package [16:27]
jxm_GuilainC, I don';t know [16:27]
GuilainCand debian package is know to be break [16:27]
gac410I don't think you can reset just the current directory. [16:27]
jxm_I just installed the deb packages for foswiki and foswiki natskin module, which pulled some dependencies, and that's it [16:28]
GuilainCso for dependency you can check on extension topic page
which is long
[16:28]
jxm_Why do I get watermarks under the text in the TinyMCE edit box?
It seems to read "PROTECT FOREVER" ?
[16:28]
gac410Lavr another handy git thing. If you want to set aside all your changes to come back to later: [16:29]
GuilainCor what i do and it's works well up to now is using perl-depends command
hum jxm_ in which web which topic you are ?
[16:29]
jxm_http://wiki/foswiki/bin/edit/Main/WebPreferences [16:29]
gac410work work work.... git stash save MyCurrentWork
do other stuff
git stash pop
Stash is a stack of changes you can apply by name or pop off the stack.
[16:29]
jxm_And my Set SKIN = nat got one [16:30]
LavrIN this example it was the AdminGroup.txt I wanted to restore earlier. [16:30]
jxm_And is brown instead of black [16:30]
LavrAnd WikiUsers.txt to get back to hole number 1 [16:30]
GuilainChum jxm_ i cannot imagine the trouble
could you edit or not ?
[16:30]
jxm_Hahaha [16:31]
LavrThere is a lot to learn with git. It is not at all as simple as SVN. Even though many say it is. [16:31]
GuilainCjxm_, : view topic, change something, and save ? [16:31]
jxm_If I add a Set SKIN = nat at the end of Appearance section, without a bullet, nothing breaks
If I add it as a bullet point under Set SITEMAPLIST = on, it becomes brown, I have a "PROTECT" blue wtermark under it, and CSS breaks
[16:31]
gac410This maybe more advanced. What I've done is built my own local extension "LocalDataContrib" as it's own little repo and extension. I override UsersWebName and SandboxWebName in my config. [16:32]
GuilainCGuilainC doesn't use tinymce, let him try it [16:32]
gac410So I just pseudo-install.pl LocalDataContrib and my dev / testing env is back. including LocalSite.cfg, LocalLib.txt, etc. [16:32]
jxm_This is ok:
---++ Appearance
* Set WEBBGCOLOR = #FFEFA6
* <sticky>web-specific background color, <span style='background-color: %WEBBGCOLOR%'> current color </span></sticky>
* Set SITEMAPLIST = on
* Set WEBSUMMARY = %MAKETEXT{"Welcome to [_1] ... meet people on this site" args="<nop>%WIKITOOLNAME%"}%
Set SKIN = nat
[16:32]
gac410jxm Set must be a bullet. So unless that's a typo... " * Set SKIN = nat [16:33]
jxm_This breaks:
---++ Appearance
* Set WEBBGCOLOR = #FFEFA6
* <sticky>web-specific background color, <span style='background-color: %WEBBGCOLOR%'> current color </span></sticky>
* Set SITEMAPLIST = on
* Set SKIN = nat
* Set WEBSUMMARY = %MAKETEXT{"Welcome to [_1] ... meet people on this site" args="<nop>%WIKITOOLNAME%"}%
gac410, ok, that explains why it does not break anything when not a bullet then. TY.
[16:33]
gac410Lavr, It's not that it's more or less simple. But it certainly is different. SCM has it's learning curve for sure be it git, svn, or ... [16:34]
GuilainCjxm_, that's right, bullet is needed for telling to foswiki is a setting
exactly bullet and "Set "
---* Set SKIN (where - is space)
[16:34]
LavrDifference is that with svn you can be a simple programmer with svn co, svn up, svn commit, svn add, svn del. [16:35]
jastand with 'svn up' you can break your own uncommitted changes [16:35]
jxm_GuilainC, I'll drop it for now, get to it later. Tanks for all you time trying to help. [16:35]
jastgit's pull doesn't do that.
unfortunately svn isn't all rainbows and unicorns, either
[16:36]
LavrYes. You can break anything. But it is simple. Easy to go to when you are a hardware engineer like me and not a pro programmer [16:36]
GuilainCok jxm_ please feel free to get back, and in the time, i will try to check natskin dependency [16:36]
LavrIn hardware I am used to breaking things. With fire and smoke :-)
And small explosions even
[16:37]
gac410Lavr, See http://foswiki.org/Development/MoveCodeRepositoryToGit Scroll down about 1/3 There is a table of svn & git equivalents [16:37]
jxm_Lavr, GIT _is_ simple as far as conepts go. It is the CLI that gets convoluted. When I teach it, I restrict users to a small set of commands to use and force them into a simple workflow. I found that it helps them becoming confident, and after a while they start learning more on their own and discover alternate workflows. [16:37]
gac410we really need to move that table to a GitForSvnUsers topic. [16:37]
jxm_Lavr, the main thing I feel with git is to teach being fearless, but incitating people to branch a lot
s/but/by
[16:37]
gac410Y That is one huge difference. Branch branch branch. lightweight pointers to a point in time. Nothing like the svn copy of the world. [16:38]
jxm_gac410, you are right
Once you understand that branching in Git is not only free, but how you should structure almost every work session, things get nicer
[16:38]
gac410Want to experiment. "git checkout -b MyExperiment" Now you are in your own development branch you can eventually merge bacvk. [16:39]
jastI don't branch that often, mostly because I throw away most things I start, no need to create a branch when I'm not even committing anything [16:39]
LavrAt the moment I have no clue how to check back something. But one thing at a time. Right now I need to get a pseudo-install up running. [16:39]
gac410I do more often use stash. [16:40]
jxm_Often, the alternate is a lot of commits, then git rebase -i, then realise that you pushed to origin too soon, that you can't rebase anymore (unless you love getting hate from others), and end up with a messed up history [16:40]
gac410So to roll this conversation way back. Have you ended up with a usable config?
Care to move on to configuring email? That's another new adventure. :)
[16:40]
jxm_gac410, the problem with stash is that when you get back to your work after a while, it is easy to forget that you have something stashed [16:41]
LavrI am configuring email NOW [16:41]
gac410Okay. 1) Do you use sendmail or perl for mail?
Let me talk you through because it's different.
[16:41]
jxm_When it is in your log and branches, it is _visible_ you ave pending commits to either merge with you master/devel, discard, or need to work on
The key to this is being able to rebase your devel branches to some recent version of your master/stable branch easily
[16:41]
gac410If you use local sendmail. Visit the Email tab. Put in your admin email address. And click the auto-confgure link under that field. Should just be magic. [16:42]
Lavrgac410 I use sendmail at the office and I use gmail smtp at home so at the moment I setup gmail smtp using perl [16:42]
gac410Okay. For gmail Put in yuour email, gmail server , userid password, and click the auto-configure.
There is one for convenience under the password field too.
[16:43]
jxm_Lavr, is sendmail a choice vs postfix? [16:44]
gac410Don't need ports or anything. Help for SMTP Host includes info for gmail setup. [16:44]
LavrI never considered anything else at work. sendmail works
But we are going Google at work so it may change
[16:44]
gac410If the perl modules are all there, it will probe the ports, find the secure port, validate the connection, and tell you what it automatically configured. [16:45]
jxm_Lavr, believe me, my life changed back when I was a sysadmin and migrated from sendmail to postfix [16:45]
LavrI get SMTP configuration using smtp.gmail.com failed. Falling back to mail program [16:45]
jxm_So much cleaner
But again, we had that huge sendmail config useing tons of M4 preprocessing for generating the actuaql config
[16:45]
gac410hm If you scroll back up in the autoconfig log. does it show where it failed? [16:45]
jxm_No more of that was needed with postfix [16:45]
LavrIn Foswiki I never did anything. I just put our internal Exchange server and it worked
I will not tell you why it failed :-P
[16:46]
gac410:) [16:47]
jastjxm_: I suspect this is about the sendmail binary, provided for compatibility by most MTAs, for sending mail via the local MTA [16:47]
jxm_jast, haa, right [16:48]
LavrWith a username and a password it works much better. Now it works [16:48]
gac410The email wizard was mainly TimotheLitt's work. Though it's had a lot of tweaking. So far in my experience it's worked well. CDot however has not been very successful.
:)
If you have an old email server that does not support secure connections, and your tcp stack doesn't time out non-responding ports, then the wizard can die a painful lingering death :)
[16:48]
LavrI can imagine. But with gmail it worked great. Well I still need to see it send an email ;-) [16:50]
gac410Test email button right under the webmaster email address [16:50]
Lavrjust did :-) [16:51]
gac410Just dont' forget to eventually save your config. All this works without saving. So you know it's right before you commit to LSC [16:51]
LavrWorks [16:52]
gac410Cool. [16:52]
LavrSo if I want good old EditTablePlugin to live side by side with EditRowPlugin I just redefine the EDITTABLE tag to something else, right? [16:53]
gac410CDot... ???
gac410 has no idea. EditTablePlugin has a huge list of issues. I guess there are no plans to fix.
[16:54]
LavrThat would be a make/break decision for me to upgrade. EditRowPlugin will never be compatible enough. [16:57]
gac410I know CDot has done a lot of work on ERP to try to get it in shape for 1.2 [16:57]
LavrAnd we have 10000s of topics with EDITTABLE tags [16:57]
gac410The tag is backwards compat.
Or should be.
[16:57]
LavrI will try it in different contexts but I doubt it will be compatible. The problems - are they related to 1.2? Or just same problems as in 1.1.9? [16:58]
gac410CDot will have to address that. I don't do much with edittable stuff. Same with 1.1.9 I think.
I don't think there is anything specific to 1.2 http://foswiki.org/Tasks/EditTablePlugin
The last time I looked at trying to fix some of it I ran away. It's pretty difficult code.
[16:58]
CDotI would *not* recommend trying to get EditTablePlugin and EditRowPlugin to coexist. Pick one.
EditRowPlugin and TablePlugin *should* be plug compatible.
[17:00]
gac410EditRowPlugin also gets you client-side javascript sorting. which makes it much more responsive, and in the presence of web bots, greatly offloads the server. [17:01]
LavrI will try it before I start shooting at it. But last time I looked two years ago it was not at all compatible [17:01]
CDotdepends how you defined "compatible". It is certainly not identical. [17:01]
LavrI have some EDITTABLE tables from Hell at work that I will be testing. [17:01]
CDotIt is designed function (almost) entirely in the client, so by necessity it does some things differently. [17:02]
gac410gac410 wonders if you could use * Set DISABLE_... whatever the syntax to allow ETP to be active on certain pages. ie global disable ETP, enable ERP, and swap the settings on some problem pages or web? [17:03]
LavrDoes it still only edit one line at a time or can you also edit all cells at once? [17:03]
CDotLavr: you always *could* edit all cells at once
at least, from very early days
you can constrain it to do row-by-row editing; depends on the options you set.
[17:03]
LavrMaybe it is more than two years ago then. Well I have been playing with my music for 3 so it is actually more than 3 years ago already [17:04]
CDotalso, with ERP, all cells are editable all of the time
click on the yellow stain (no huskies or snow required)
[17:04]
LavrI will give it a good go and see how it flies [17:04]
gac410Yeah. Click stain to edit a single cell, click pencil to edit row, click [Edit} button to edit whole table. [17:05]
CDotplease do. There has been a dearth of feedback on it :-( [17:05]
gac410gac410 has dutifully bitched about it at times :D [17:06]
LavrHow does it behave with CALC{} inside?
I had to hack something up for that in ETP
[17:06]
CDotno idea; not something I do
oh wait; I vaguely recall you raising a bug regarding that. Pretty sure it was fixed.
[17:06]
gac410CDot: ... http://trunk.foswiki.org/Sandbox/TestEditTable seems to be doing server side sorting ??? [17:07]
LavrWe have some tables where teams put in how many prototypes they want of this and that. And then some label cells with CALC adds up the totals using some formulas from hell. [17:07]
gac410Lavr: 1.2 probably should really be called 2.0 There have been a LOT of major changes, both internally and user facing.
gac410 still needs to decide whether we officially go with Beta 1 today.
MichaelDaum: I'm partly holding off due to the UTF8 CGI blocker. Some of the translators need more time, so not a bad thing to delay, but not forever :)
[17:09]
CDotgac410: it doesn't have the erpJS_sort class on the table. Dunno why. [17:11]
LavrOh. Translation. I did not look at it yet. Is the other Dane doing OK? [17:11]
gac410CDot Did you see my task on my first attempt to convert from RcsLite to PlainFile [17:11]
CDotno [17:11]
gac410Didn't even migrate the System web correctly
Missed pieces of FamFam...
Didn't do any subwebs. I think that one is a simple fix
[17:11]
CDotMichaelDaum is the expert on the migration script [17:12]
gac410And seemed to regress manually edited topics to last checked in version. [17:12]
CDotI haven't looked at it in a long while. Worked fine when I did. [17:12]
MichaelDaumwhich mig script [17:12]
gac410change_store.pl [17:12]
CDotthe store convertor [17:12]
MichaelDaumnever ever used it [17:12]
CDotoh, no, wait, sorry, you were on charset_convertor
n.m.
[17:13]
gac410http://foswiki.org/Tasks/Item13313
I think FamFamFam is using some 1000+ auto-attached files.
on the Silk icon set
[17:13]
CDotso it may well still be running
IIRC, because System doesn't have any topic histories, it *always* skips it
[17:14]
gac410It ran really fast. but I noticed stuff was missing.
No. It created a ,pfv for every system topic even withouthistories
And my System.AdminUser which was at Rev 3+ reverted to Rev3, with some unexpected and very confusing meta data that trashed my skin.
[17:14]
CDotok, maybe I just considered that. As I say, not looked at it / used it in ages [17:15]
gac410Er. Main.Adminuser
Anyway, details in the task.
[17:15]
CDotremember, your checked out topics *must* be consistent with the ,v history [17:16]
gac410Hm How does an existing site find all of them? [17:16]
CDotyour rev2/rev3 problem sounds like they weren't [17:16]
gac410Yup.... I had no idea that a year ago I had edited that file and removed some damaging Set ... statements [17:16]
CDotif your site has hacked the .txt without checking in a new ,v it is not just compromising this script; it is also slaughtering performance
because the consistency functions are constantly having to kick in
[17:17]
gac410yeah I agree. But we do know that sites do occasionally edit files. [17:17]
CDot(assuming no-one has removed those functions, that is. I think Michael was threatening to at one point)
once you edit and save a topic, the consistency should be restored
[17:17]
gac410I think we need to detect that we are about to revert a topic and SCREAM LOUDLY during the conversion.
Only if you know that the topic is in that state.
[17:18]
CDotnot sure that is possible. [17:18]
gac410I could imagine this being horribly damaging to sites. Historically it's always been possible to edit .txt files. Heck we used to claim that was a feature.
Silently reverting them during conversion. Not cool.
Maybe need to compare the before/after and stop the conversion?
[17:19]
CDotanyway, if you can't work out where the problem lies, please attach relevant data to the report. Reproducing problems is 9/10ths of the battle. [17:20]
gac410Well I clearly know what topic, and can reproduce at will. I'm just guessing that it's due to a manual edit, as stuff in the rcs file magically appears in the new topic.
It's really obvious when PATTERNSKIN_LAYOUT, STYLES and COLORS all point to missing files.
That had me really mystified
[17:21]
CDotprobably. BTW that failure to sort is deffo a bug, please raise a report. [17:23]
GuilainCGuilainC dream about script which could help him for migration by changing all old code by new one, like global search and replace should work, but never find how to use it with success [17:24]
gac410And the missing autoattached files from pub System/FamFamFamSilkIcons only has one attachment listed out of 1007 [17:24]
CDot: http://trunk.foswiki.org/Tasks/Item13314 ERP fails to add sort class [17:29]
LavrThe editing of .txt files is a super feature. Imagine how easy it was for me when compass.mot.com had to be come compass.mot-solutions.com in 10000+ topics when we changed name
What was the drive behind going away from the RCS ,v files? Performance? Old shit likely to go away?
[17:30]
gac410Y. I've done similar major web restructuring like that.
Performance. There are some huge issues. with either very large numbers of revisions, or binary files.
To the point that we sometimes can't upload extensions to foswiki.org
[17:31]
LavrSo when I upgrade - can the old and new format live side by side? Do old topics get converted when saved? Or am I stuck with RCS? [17:32]
gac410And some of it is just architectural in RCS. It doesn't do binary well.
If bootstrap detected any ,v files, it will set RcsLite by default. If you configured from a pristine install it will get it wrong.
If plainfile comes across a ,v or RCS finds a ,pfv then it will die rather than corrupt your files.
[17:32]
LavrSo no auto conversion. And upgraders are stuck with rcs? [17:34]
gac410there is a migration script convert_store.pl which can migrate between stores. But as we were just talking it had some issues. [17:34]
LavrAh that is the one you talk about. OK. But eventually when it works - I could convert the whole site [17:35]
gac410Yes.
It works, but currently, misses subwebs, misses autoattach files, and reverts files to last "checked in" revision in the RCS file.
All rather significant :D
[17:35]
LavrI silently DELETE the ,v files from the pub directories when files get a bit old and noone has ever complained. Keeps the backup smaller [17:35]
gac410yes. That's another way to deal with the issues.
For our extensions though I don't think we want to do that. People do want the ability to go back in time
WebStatistics is another one that gets huge rcs files. 1000's of revs.
[17:36]
LavrSome people were starting to make a copy of a weekly report with 10 software metric graphs. And when you copy the topic - you copy all attachments. And then they added 10 new. So the size of the pubs grew at an exponental rate.
I had to educate some blokes there
[17:37]
gac410:)
Lavr: http://trunk.foswiki.org/Tasks/Item13315 tried to start to capture your issues.
I'll have to replay this log to find them all.
Please add your 2-cents worth
[17:37]
LavrAfter 10 years of use and around 1000 registered users - my entire foswiki at work can still be zipped to a 7 GB file. Very impressive and shows how powerful our .txt storage is
Oh - thanks. That helps
I will need to scroll the log to remember all again
[17:39]
gac410gac410 is afraid to ask. But now that you've gotten past the really confusing stuff. What's your impression on the bootstrap install. [17:40]
LavrConfusing. [17:40]
gac410we've probably been too close to it for too long to really get it. [17:40]
LavrIt is the step of going to foswiki first and then back to configure that is very strange and it is too easy to shut yourself out. [17:41]
gac410We probably need a "Foswiki 1.2 for 1.1 admins. IMPORTANT READ THIS FIRST
Yeah The reason for that is to detect short URLs.
[17:41]
LavrI have always advocated for having a first user creation feature in configure. You create first user and make him admin. Just like when you install a new Linux distro [17:42]
gac410If your web server is set up to redirect bin/view to / then if you start with configure, bootstrap will get it wrong. [17:42]
LavrWhich I did not do. I went for the good old long ugly URLs [17:43]
CDotLavr: the feature of editing text files has not gone away. What PlainFile does is to flatten out the history into complete files, so (1) it's easier to search history and (2) there no need to reconstuct old versions using RCS (which is very expensive) [17:43]
gac410With good old long ugly URLs then going right to foswiki/bin/configure should work fine. [17:43]
CDotyou can still silently delete histories if you want [17:44]
LavrAh. So I can hack the history >:-) [17:44]
CDotyes
even more easily than you used to
but of course you won't, because you're an ISO9000 organisation, right ;-)
[17:44]
gac410The gotcha right now with the change_store is that it misses that there has been a .txt edit not in RCS [17:44]
CDotgac410: that sounds about right
though the store is supposed to handle that silently, IIRC
i.e. it is meant to treat the .txt as a new rev under certain conditions
tsk! you'll lose your black belt, talking like that ;-)
still widespread in industry
[17:45]
gac410The blackbelts contributed to the demise of where I worked. Sales engineering opened a task for a bug for a new (not-current) customer with a HUGE potential (us military iirc)
And support closed it. No customer associated. You are messing up the metrics.
[17:48]
LavrMY team in Copenhagen was reduced to nothing last year. Now I work with the Chicago team (but from Denmark) and I am actually getting Foswiki introduced there more and more and it is popular. [17:50]
gac410Cool. [17:50]
CDotLavr: on the plus side, the share price is still rising (albeit slowly) [17:51]
LavrI sold everything I had in February when the shares suddenly hit 70 [17:51]
CDoty, I missed that window. I have a sell order on a little bit higher
though I'm tempted to offload now (for no other reason than the money can work harder elsewhere)
[17:52]
gac410gac410 rode 1000's of shares up to >100, only to be greedy and ride it all the way back down ... to 47 cents a share. Dont' get greedy. Sell it. [17:53]
CDoty, you're right I guess. [17:53]
LavrThat is the thing. Moving to something that has a chance to grow a bit more. My wife got shares in Novo Nordisk when she was there (Insulin). They have tripled. [17:54]
GuilainCGuilainC is happy to see that lenovo has released the yoga 2 in 14'', he's unhappy when he see the price [17:54]
CDotnice [17:54]
LavrNow she is in anti-depressives. [17:54]
gac410in or on :D [17:55]
Lavrwork on :-)
No anti-depressives for me. I open a bottle of expensive red wine instead. And compose a new international hit ;-)
[17:55]
gac410Oh.. you asked about Danish tanslation. Coming along slowly. French and German are the stars so far. [17:57]
LavrI was going to try some of my Moto topics on 1.2 but the darn USB stick is not working. It was formatted in NTFS and written to on a RedHat but Win7 will not read it. Darn
Should have made it ext4
[17:58]
gac410Danish: Currently translated at 85.0% (1007 of 1184 strings)
French: Currently translated at 99.6% (1180 of 1184 strings)
[18:01]
GuilainCRaulFR, makes good work ! :) [18:01]
gac410ugh. foswki.org not responding to ping.
gmc ... you around?
never mind. It's back
[18:03]
CDotall the translators are heroes. We owe you beer/bier/birra/bière/fizzywater (that last one is for the US) 3:-) [18:05]
gac410Lavr: I just moved the cheat sheet for you. See http://foswiki.org/Development/GitCheatSheetForSVNUsers [18:06]
LavrThanks
I got my USB stick to work. I installed the same driver ntfs-3g as I had used at work and I can read it on my Centos machine. But not on Windows 7. So a sucky ntfs implementation in Linux
[18:07]
Enough for today. She Who Must Be Obeyed is home and I need to go and fetch some junkfood (Friday is junk food night)
It was great to talk to you all again
[18:19]
gac410glad to see you back. We've missed your brutal focus on reality ! :)
And at times really needed it
[18:20]
jxm_Could anyone tell me how to install or activate the theme browser please?
I see many references to it, but cannot find it on the extensions pages nor in my default install menus.
[18:26]
gac410Hm I'm not sure what that is. Could you point me to a reference? [18:27]
jxm_Apparently a way to browse installed skins
Sorry, "SkinBrowser"
[18:28]
gac410Ah. System/SkinBrowser [18:28]
jxm_Thanks
IS there no link to it by default?
[18:28]
gac410IIRC it's rather disfunctional. [18:29]
jxm_Mmmh, ok, not working 100% so hidden (sort of) ? [18:29]
gac410Hm. Just tried it on trunk, and it seems to work. Though we only have the Pattern, Default and Plain skins installed. [18:30]
jxm_Apparently it does not display all available skins
I only get a few, many are missing (I installed widgetskin with)
[18:30]
gac410Hm It does a search for any Topic ending with "Skin" in System web.
The only skins in really active development are NatSkin and PatternSkin.
[18:30]
jxm_ACtually, it does display widgetskin (empty image), but none of the "Styles" available from it. Not sure about the difference between style and skin though. I know that I can pass ?skin=cityscape-chicago which is a style from the widgetskin packahes, and it works, but does not show up in the skins browser
gac410, natskin is still badly broken for me
[18:31]
GuilainCjxm_, a detail, the chgrp need to be recursive.. chgrp -R /var/lib/foswiki [18:32]
jxm_I can get other skins to work, but nat just simply breaks JS and CSS on my install [18:32]
gac410Yeah. If the skin has special settings, the browser is not going to find them. MichaelDaum is the NatSkin author. [18:32]
jxm_GuilainC, yup, I tried that, but it was ok out of the box [18:32]
gac410I know that natSkin has a large number of complex dependencies. But for those who get it working, they seem to like it. [18:33]
jxm_gac410, all the more reason for me to insist on trying it out :-) [18:33]
gac410https://demo.michaeldaumconsulting.com/bin/view/Home/WebHome is the demo site. [18:34]
jxm_I suspect it simply misses some PErl module dependency, but have no clue which one
As nothing useful shows up in the logs and error message
[18:34]
gac410I'm not one of the users o NatSkin, so I have no idea. Sorry. [18:34]
jxm_gac410, now you keep teasing me with what I apparently can't have, you are a devil ;-) [18:34]
GuilainCjxm_, see in System/InstalledPlugins
if there is no init error
[18:34]
gac410Y. That will tell you if there are missing perl mods for extensions you have installed and enabled. [18:35]
jxm_nope, all good in there [18:35]
GuilainCand then, i've my special command for testing all perl dependencies, little be long but efficient, i don't have any dependency trouble [18:35]
gac410Also make sure that in bin/configure Extensions tab for enable/disable are enabled.
And also check under JQuery. Make sure latest available version of JQuery is enabled, and all the jquery specific plugins are enabled.
[18:35]
GuilainCso be sure that all dependencies list here http://foswiki.org/Extensions/NatSkin are enabled ;)
GuilainC confirm, natskin works well on his personal (debian) install
[18:37]
jxm_Argh [18:38]
gac410The dependencies installer does not install "optional" dependencies, but IIRC, a lot of the flagged optional deps are mostly required. [18:38]
jxm_The natskinp plugin was _not_enabled
It works now
[18:38]
gac410:) [18:38]
GuilainCgood to know ! [18:38]
jxm_But I was fooled but the save to fail silently in configure
I edited it maually now it works
folled _by_
anyway, you can read through my typos
too tired
:-/
You've been very helpful guys, nice to find a responsive IRC chan for a change
[18:38]
gac410we try [18:39]
jxm_Mmmh., I said it works, but I still have unexpanded macro names displayed on the pages
%WEBLINK{format="
$title
"}%
You are here: %BREADCRUMBS{separator=" » "}%
[18:40]
GuilainCapt-get install foswiki-weblinkplugin
apt-get install foswiki-breadcumbsplugin
[18:40]
jxm_ok, so these are missing deps from the autogenerated natskin package I suppose [18:41]
GuilainCfor the responsive irc, it's because, we are well programed (our designers have made well bots)
exactly
[18:41]
gac410gac410 can never understand why some channels take pleasure at being abusive to newbies. [18:41]
jxm_Mmmh, actually no
root@wheezy:/var/lib/foswiki/data/Main# aptitude show foswiki-natskin
...
Depends: foswiki, foswiki-core, foswiki-famfamfamcontrib, foswiki-autotemplateplugin, foswiki-breadcrumbsplugin, foswiki-mimeiconplugin, foswiki-filterplugin, foswiki-flexweblistplugin,
foswiki-jqueryplugin, foswiki-nateditplugin, foswiki-natskinplugin, foswiki-renderplugin, foswiki-topicinteractionplugin
[18:41]
GuilainCsure that weblink is not in depends
it's on my task list
breacumbs is
[18:42]
jxm_yup, but breadcrumbs is [18:42]
GuilainCso check in bin/configure
if breadcumbs is enable or not
[18:42]
jxm_Probably not enabled, right [18:42]
gac410I think that NatSkin also uses DBCacheContrib but not really sure ... don't go down that rat hole. :) [18:43]
jxm_Mmmh, I expected those to be enabled by default
My bad, checking now
[18:43]
gac410Configure doesn't have any auto enable feature, and deb pkgs dont' have any clean way to edit config. [18:43]
GuilainCyes, you can't have auto enabled function
some plugins are exclusive
[18:43]
jxm_Much better [18:44]
GuilainCso first you install
then you exactly know what you are doing when you enable/disable in configure
[18:44]
jxm_gac410, is all config in /etc/foswiki/LocalSite.cfg aka no way to include something from some extensions.d/*.conf style dir ?
I could imagine something like /etc/foswiki/config.d/SOMEPLUGINNAME.cfg
[18:45]
gac410Foswiki 1.2 will have a new shell tool tools/configure -save -set {Plugins}{SomePlugin}{Enable}='1' -set {Plugins}{SomePlugin}{Module}='Foswiki::Plugins::SomePlugin' [18:45]
jxm_gac410, so just a parser/writer to edit programmatically the config
Mmmh
ok, why not
The config.d style is more common, simpler and require almost no code
[18:46]
gac410The active config is all in LocalSite.cfg. The defaults are in lib/Foswiki/Plugins/SomePlugin/Config.spec But that should be merged in. [18:46]
jxm_Also, easier to manually inspect the config [18:46]
gac410jxm_: We are working with 10 years of history here. [18:46]
jxm_But also have orthogonal functionality to what you mentionned, so I guess both approches would be complementary [18:47]
GuilainCgac410, don't tell you, that foswiki recuit some volunteers for writing the next 10 years history [18:47]
jxm_gac410, believe me, I know what that feels like, I won't blame anyone ;-) [18:47]
gac410And runs on Windows, Linux, Mac, ... platforms that don't necessarily have conf.d structure. [18:47]
jxm_gac410, good point, other platforms tend to stay under my radar I admit [18:48]
gac410Actually the debian & rpm installers are not a formal part of the project. As the RM, we build and release the tarball and zipfiles. Other volunteers like GuilainC are tasked with making OS specific packages.
'tis a challenge for sure.
[18:48]
jxm_GuilainC, I currently have so much trouble recruiting volunteers for my own FOSS projects that it would be dishonest to promise any of my time to contributing to others
I could not enforce my own promise
[18:49]
gac410gac410 runs gentoo locally, [18:49]
GuilainCGuilainC is far to have something usefull for debian... :( [18:49]
gac410So packaging to me is a C compiler :D [18:49]
jxm_gac410, yeah, packaging is a necessary evil though. I feel the pain in my own projects too...
gac410, and my code is in all major distros, which is apparently not (yet) the case for foswiki
[18:50]
gac410Someone has built BSD ports as well. No idea who. They seem to be stuck at 1.1.5. We don't officially even know about them.
jxm_: What is your package?
[18:50]
jxm_So you would think less trouble and more manpower. But no, not the case.
gac410, I am the author of targetcli, co-author of LIO, the linux SCSI target
[18:50]
gac410cool [18:51]
jxm_targetcli / rtlib are the userspace (control plane) components of
it
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LIO_%28SCSI_target%29
From my irc nick you can infer which one of the two I am ;-)
So yeah, packaging across so many distros, and supporting so many environments is a PITA
Not even mentionning changing libraries just because "only debian has that one and RHEL won't include it"
[18:51]
gac410Foswiki is really difficult I expect, because it mixes configuration and user data all in the same places. [18:53]
jxm_Stuff like that
gac410, yes, this is a tuff one
[18:53]
gac410trust me, we fully understand the cross distro issues. Perl versions and modules are a huge issue for us. [18:54]
jxm_I can't see debian for example allowing application-writable stuff in /etc
Especially a web app
gac410, in my case it is python
Think python2 vs python3 for instance
[18:54]
gac410Our default install is pretty monolithic. Everything in the www/foswiki directory. But the packagers move stuff into other locations which cause some real confusion at times. [18:55]
jxm_I guess perl6 is your own nemesis ;-)
gac410, TBH your /etc stuff should belong somewhere under /var for pretty much all distros I know of
[18:55]
gac410We put nothing in etc at all.
/var/www/foswiki/... That's it.
[18:56]
jxm_And app-installable extensions are a tuff one too [18:56]
gac410If it's in etc, it got relocated by the packages. [18:56]
GuilainCgac410, jxm_ speak about the debian package [18:57]
jxm_gac410, then relocated it was
Which is ironic ;-)
[18:57]
GuilainCwhat's "tuff" ? [18:57]
jxm_difficile [18:57]
GuilainCand why app-installable extensions is a "tuff"
ok
[18:57]
jxm_C'est un truc dificile [18:58]
gac410Our out of box is to unzip foswiki in a web home directory, and everything lives there. [18:58]
jxm_a tuff one [18:58]
GuilainC[fr] pigé un peu tard... [18:58]
gac410tuff being slang for tough [18:58]
jxm_yep
Should be tough
Slang/mispelling/urban-yuppie-ip-hop style ;-)
hip
:-)
I write english like an irishman grown in the bronx by spanish parents with a new-zealand teacher
or something like that
[18:58]
gac410Extensions are very difficult because it installs many of the files into the data/.. pub/... that are end-user updatable. plus modules in lib.. templates, etc. [18:59]
jxm_gac410, at least there is a clear separation between user data and extensions
I mean /data _is_ a separate thing
OR does it put things in /data ?
[19:00]
gac410At one point in time it was even worse. Extensions were previously configured directly in the System/SomePlugin topic. That went away some years ago, [19:00]
jxm_(for extensions I mean)
gac410, <nod>
[19:00]
GuilainCjxm_, extension put only in System web [19:01]
gac410Yes they DO put things in data, pub, templates, lib, and maybe even locale if they have been translated. [19:01]
GuilainCwhich is under /data [19:01]
gac410no no... not true.
Extensions ... some create their own webs. Some put topics in Sandbox.
[19:01]
GuilainCoh yes gac410... i forget something [19:01]
jxm_Mmmh, so you would need to turn your hierarchy model 90 degrees to be in line with what most distros would expect [19:02]
GuilainCbut jxm_, extension never touch your web data [19:02]
jxm_I have seen web apps solve that with synlink farms [19:02]
GuilainCwhich is in a separate directory [19:02]
jxm_Which are both difficult to maintain and broken most of the time
(not to mention ugly)
[19:02]
gac410And Foswiki allows you to rename webs. So site might be running as System named "Operating", Main named "Usersweb" Sandbox named "Playground" [19:02]
jxm_But to maintain backward compat and move forward is a _tough_ call [19:03]
gac410The Extensions installer will accommodate this and relocate files while installing. [19:03]
jxm_(see what I did here, trying to spell correctly and all)
:-)
gac410, but a package manager could not, of course
[19:03]
gac410The .deb / .rpm packages work well for a "vanilla" foswiki install. But if user has done lots of customization, it can get ugly.
Right.
[19:04]
jxm_At least not without some hinting and more complex system [19:04]
gac410It's all in LocalSite.cfg [19:04]
jxm_Like an ugly symlink farm
gac410, which a package manager won't parse
[19:04]
gac410$Foswiki::cfg{DataDir} {PubDir} ...
right.
[19:04]
jxm_And of course a script relocating the files in postinst is not acceptable
But a few symlinks would be
[19:05]
gac410The Foswiki packages were (years ago) designed to be installed by simple unzip /untar in root of foswiki installation. [19:06]
jxm_package installs in default location (/system), postinst looks at LocalConfig (using your 1.2 config parser) and sets a proper symlink to "/operations"
And then the user decides to change the location again and you are stuck :-)
[19:06]
gac410If packager is running in perl, just "do LocalSite.cfg" and you get all the paths. But then again, on a new install that won't exist. [19:06]
jxm_The thing is that a distro will expect the paths to be predefined and fixed most of the time
You lack one level of indirection here is you ask me
[19:07]
gac410The first release of this software was the twiki perl scritp in 1998. Which was forked from joswiki. [19:07]
jxm_<nod>, lots of legacy stuff [19:08]
gac410So there has been some level of backwards compatibility back nearly 17 years. [19:08]
jxm_wow [19:08]
gac410Granted things have been deprecated along the way, but ...
It does explain why stuff is what it is.
[19:08]
jxm_I know
I've been asked to relocate /var/target to /var/lib/target from ages
But both our kernel module and userspace use that
And they do not have the same release schedule
[19:09]
gac410And we have the joy of people expecting this to work on IIS [19:10]
jxm_And userspace is supposed to work with _nay_ version of the kernel module, older or newer
So the distros complain, but we never end up fixing it :-(
[19:10]
gac410At least you are not portable to IIS :P [19:11]
jxm_gac410, this, I don't have to cope with at least :-)
Do you really have a large userbase running this under winows?
(can't even spell it)
[19:11]
gac410We just discovered a new subtle one. lighttpd on osx, the url path gets "lowere-cased" on case insensitive file systems. [19:11]
jxm_gac410, believe it or not, someone asked us to port the linux target to windows :-))
And out CEO at the time actually asked us seriously if it was doable for a large sum of money
[19:12]
gac410jxm_: Unfortunately no idea about windows user base. We have indeed have occasional support requests. No idea how big the iceberg is under that tip. [19:12]
jxm_The answer implied shoving money up some dark hole [19:12]
gac410:D [19:12]
jxm_gac410, have you thought of making your life easier and evaluating if cutting support for this is doable ? [19:13]
gac410for windows? [19:13]
jxm_I mean, sometime you have to cut dead branches to let the tree be stronger and grow [19:13]
GuilainCGuilainC is calling by a lovely voice tell him that it's time to eat - see you ! [19:13]
jxm_gac410, yes, win support
Same here, and the voice was pretty pissed
[19:13]
gac410We don't have very much specific windows code. Occasional tests here and there. [19:14]
jxm_Guess I have to go too :-/ [19:14]
gac410So probably not a big gain.
Perl is pretty portable.
[19:14]
jxm_TTYL guys [19:14]
gac410Its mostly best effort, and we leave tasks in "Needs Dev" ttyl
(whatever that means )
gac410 needs to get some stuff done too. bbl
[19:14]
...... (idle for 26mn)
CDot, can you think of any reason why {LoginManager} can't be added to AccessibleConfig? We can avoid rendering logout link for apache login [19:41]
CDotgac410: well, it's a big security hint [19:42]
gac410Or maybe add a context of "canLogout" I was also thinking of a context canSudo [19:42]
CDotbut I guess not [19:42]
gac410Context would avoid the hint [19:42]
CDotCDot would like to retire contexts if possible [19:42]
gac410That would be a huge change. We use them all over the place. [19:42]
CDotbut either way, I don;t think the hint is a big deal
it's so easy to work out otherwise
[19:42]
gac410Just thinking of Lavr's confusion. No sense rendering the login link for superuser if the {Password} is not set. And I *know* that one should not be accessible :D
And some login managers like apache, don't permit logout. So rendering a "clear your seesion" message instead of a logout button would be better there do,
to.
Okay... LoginManagers currently add $session->enterContext('can_login'); Adding can_logout would be consistent.
So %IF{"{AdminUserWikiName}='%WIKINAME%'"  or, context can_logout render the logout button.
[19:43]
hm. So currently some of this is handled by blahLoginManager conditionally rendering a LOGOUT macro.
We also need to render LOGOUT if current user is the sudo user.
[20:01]
jxm_gac410, I was more thinking along the lines of possibilities for evolving the code base that you might discard because of the windows platform [20:16]
gac410I'm pretty sure we've had some big customers using windows servers. Like it or not, that is often the IT mandate. [20:16]
jxm_gac410, I know, my latest client is a windows shop, selling windows remote desktops to its customers
gac410, in that environment, they don;t want to have to mess with other platforms, even (or especially) for their hypersvisors, storage, etc.
[20:19]
gac410Currently foswiki is completely volunteer, so it goes in whatever direction itches get scratched. We have specific governance for features. 14 days to object to proposals, community vote if not resolved by consensus.
As a perl project, cross platform is mainly an exercise. of write once test everywhere.
[20:20]
jxm_I like that 14 days rule, it seems to be very pragmatic in preventing lockups
Does it work well?
[20:21]
gac410Well initially yes. Lately not a lot of enthusiastic discussion. [20:22]
jxm_Mmmh
You mean no discussion as in low interest, or antagonist conversations?
[20:22]
gac410As the whole fork has matured. And we took WAY too long to get the master (trunk) branch released. some drifted away.
No mainly not a lot of interest. The stalled 1.2 development has really hurt us.
years without a feature release. Just maintenance with an occasional feature creep.
[20:23]
jxm_YEah, same here. My last major bump has sort of stalled the project for some time because people expected many new features fast, but between "many new features" and "Fast", in the real world you have to pick one :-( [20:25]
gac410Lots of development major efforts, But no effort to stabilize / release. We are now doing that. Hope to start beta this week or next. [20:25]
jxm_s/major bump/major version dev branch/ [20:25]
gac410With move to git, we are going to to with a release from master branch/merge strategy for features. That should be much easier to manage than the monolithc trunk mega-releases [20:26]
jxm_Ha, yes. You've done 90% of the work, and now have to work on the OTHER 90% ;-) [20:26]
gac410Trunk on svn became everyones feature playground. It's difficult to figure out what to revert But so far it's looking very stable. We do have insane bleeding edge types running production on the master branch. [20:27]
jxm_Yes, with git you can have devel branches and rebase occasionaly before even having to merge to produce test releases or feature-specific previews
Much better
[20:28]
gac410We've also started to pick up an occasional submission via github, which really helps. [20:30]
jxm_YEs, GitHub is a surprisingly nice tool. Which is counter-intuitive for me (the need that people take interest more easily if you are on there rather than self-hosted) [20:31]
................ (idle for 1h15mn)
***ChanServ sets mode: +o Lynnwood_ [21:46]

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