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|gac410||okay, it's back.||[00:01]|
|gac410||I copied it from the foswiki 1.1.9 install, which was migrated to 2.0.||[00:01]|
|Lynnwood||although it does seem that these kinds of topics should not be in the System web if not part of distribution.||[00:01]|
|gac410||And yes, I did NOT copy the System web.||[00:01]|
|Lynnwood||are there any other known one-off topics in foswiki.org System web?
Don't we have supplemental docs in Support web?
|gac410||Right, well it should probably be in Support, or maybe add it to the distribution if it's good quality and especially if referenced in topics we ship.
tbh, I didn't really check what was in system that was missing in 2.0, other than the obvious - WebLeftBar, WebBottomBar, etc.
|Lynnwood||What about moving it to support web, changing the reference in latest version of QuerySearch, and maybe just add a redirect on foswiki.org to catch links from older installations.||[00:04]|
|gac410||If it's valuable, let's just add it to the distribution.
hm I just compared the topic list.. ... I guess I should have checked for missing topics before. :(
in that way it could be updated to reflect latest capabilities of QUERY and QUERYSEARCH
VarQUERY is so complex (or potentially so)...
|gac410||If you have energy, want me to make a copy in Support so you can edit it there? Or I'll add it to the distro, so you can edit the TML on github.
Or I can add an ALLOWTOPICCHANGE so you can edit it in System.
|Lynnwood||sure. add it to support and i'll take it on as learning task to update some and add to github.||[00:14]|
|gac410||Actually Sven had set up a DocumentationGroup for allowing editing on select system topics.
I added you to it, and I'll give that topic permissions.
Okay, you should be all set to just edit Foswiki:System.QuerySearchPatternCookbook
|FoswikiBot||http://foswiki.org/System.QuerySearchPatternCookbook [ QuerySearchPatternCookbook ]||[00:17]|
|gac410||We can add it to the 2.0.3 manifest,||[00:17]|
|Lynnwood||actually... it would seem that i have edit rights for the entire system web...||[00:18]|
|gac410||Ah... you must be in the AdminGroup||[00:18]|
|Lynnwood||i think so
seniority gets you something... if not competence... ;-)
|gac410||yes. you can just edit. Though be sure to call out anything you change that needs to get into the distro, or the next update will lose it.||[00:19]|
|Lynnwood||right. i'll add into my own brach of the distribution||[00:19]|
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|gac410||CDot scrubbed a bunch of System topics he thought were useless. So there is a LOT of stuff missing from System.||[00:44]|
|Lynnwood||it was probably the right thing to do... but we should figure an alternative location and not break docs.||[00:45]|
|gac410||well, the stuff he deleted was unrelated to the missing cookbook. That one was a new topic that I guess never got added.||[00:46]|
|Lynnwood||oh, are you referring to topics that were in the distribution.
|Lynnwood||ic.. that's different. i guess no harm there.||[00:46]|
|gac410||just makes it a bit harder to find legitimate topics that need to be restored.
my inclination is to wait for complaints :D
One thing I realize I lost was all the WebStatistics topics for System web. Not sure they are of any value though so I"m not bothering with them.
right. i don't anybody is interested in going back to see old statistics...
hitting my head against MetaDataPlugin all day.
|gac410||We can always regenerate, have all the event logs. for now not worth it.||[00:52]|
|Lynnwood||A plugin with lots of potential for applications, BUT||[00:52]|
|gac410||Never tried that one.||[00:52]|
|Lynnwood||it appears not to follow any of the normal rendering order.
i just recently had a feature request that it seemed perfectly suited.
But after a couple of days working with it, i may have to abandon this track.
i'll be damned if i can figure out how it renders it's values. It almost appears that some of the rendering is done after the page loads... e.g. as with js.
There appears to be no possible way to test values of rendered data using escaped IF macros or the such.
i even tried to pass the rendered data to and INCLUDE... but it still doesn't compute.
Anyway... i'll ask Micha about it tomorrow to see if he can shed light.
|gac410||no idea, never looked at it.||[00:56]|
|Lynnwood||y, i've never seen a plugin macro that renders like this one.||[00:56]|
|time to get off computer... later!||[01:03]|
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|RiskReward||Hi, got a strange problem with 2.0.2. The "Edit wiki text" button works well, but if a user just tries the "Edit" button it doesn't bring up an editor.||[03:26]|
|gac410||That's strange. No errors? just returns blank?||[03:27]|
|RiskReward||It returns an edit screen, with the "Edit help" dropdown available, and the save buttons along the bottom, but no editable text and no WYSIWYG tools.||[03:28]|
|gac410||what's your SKIN setting? for 2.0 it should be something like Set SKIN = natedit,pattern; hm...
Did you copy over your templates directory from 1.1.x ???
That would be bad. Major template changes in 2.0
|RiskReward||Didn't copy over all the templates, just our one customisation view.dandi
Can't remember where set SKIN is
|gac410||It should be in Main.SitePreferences||[03:30]|
|RiskReward||OK, it's Set SKIN = dandi,pattern||[03:31]|
|gac410||try adding natedit. Though it should be working even without natedit skin added.
|RiskReward||Stil no luck. This time, you don't get the "Edit Help" area.||[03:34]|
|gac410||I'm guessing that something got messed up in Templates directory. Also did you copy the System web ... that's another bad move.||[03:36]|
|RiskReward||Definitely didn't copy System web. Only copied view.dandi.tmpl to Templates.||[03:38]|
|gac410||hm Is this a public wiki?||[03:39]|
|RiskReward||No, only visible within our network.||[03:40]|
|gac410||Hm I wonder if one of the REST calls to populate the editor is failing.
Could you try an edit with the browser developer tools open - ... see if you get any 404's or other errors.
|RiskReward||Yep. Get 3 x 404 errors. failing to load TinyMCEPlugin js stuff.||[03:43]|
|gac410||That would do it.
That should all be in your pub/System/... directories
Again, a directory you should not have copied from your old system
|RiskReward||Well, pretty sure I didn't copy them across. Unless the pl migrating script does it?||[03:45]|
|gac410||It shouldn't ,,, I hope,
We know that using bulk_copy against the System web will break it badly.
CharsetConverter shouldn't cause issues though
|RiskReward||All the System files have the same date and time.
Comparing old install to new one, dates and file sizes are different, so I'd guess they're not the same files?
|gac410||yeah. Best to focus on the 404 is the file missing or some other issue?
|RiskReward||Files are present. Permissions are www-data:www-data -rw-r--r--||[03:52]|
|RiskReward||Oops, spoke too soon. Files are missing...||[03:52]|
|RiskReward||There is no editor_plugin_src.js in the new System directory||[03:53]|
|gac410||Could you give me the whole path ..../pub/System/...
(Trying to figure out if it's looking in the wrong place)
okay. That's not right. No such file
|RiskReward||(I just entered the address, but it hasn't shown up in my window here - did you get it?)||[03:55]|
never mind. That file exists.
|gac410||There are a bunch of them. Do you have any custom TINYMCEPLUGIN_... settings in your SitePreferences.txt?||[03:56]|
|RiskReward||You mean in Main.SitePreferences?||[03:57]|
|RiskReward||Actually, yes, I have one: Set TINYMCEPLUGIN_INIT_TOPIC = Main.TinyMCEPlugin||[03:58]|
|gac410||Try commenting that out. Let all the TINYMCE settings come from System.SitePreference||[03:59]|
|RiskReward||Yep, that worked.||[04:00]|
|gac410||probably customized the editor sometime in the past.
Leave natedit in your skin settings. The new Natural wikitext editor is much nicer than the old text editor
|RiskReward||You're right. Thanks for your help. I'm persuading everyone to use the wiki text editor anyway.
Which brings me to an off topic question if you have a moment?
|RiskReward||I met a guy yesterday who collaborates on documents with his business partner by writing them in markdown and using GIT.||[04:04]|
|gac410||yeah you mentioned that earlier||[04:04]|
|RiskReward||They actually use Atom.io to write, then another program to convert to PDF with styles applied.||[04:05]|
|gac410||git is pretty darn flexible. I use it for all my test installs so I can reset them to a standard state, even use it to track my /etc directory changes.
I'm not familiar with Atom.io
|RiskReward||It's an open source text editor, looks a bit like Sublime Text.||[04:06]|
|gac410||yeah I was just looking at the google hits,'||[04:06]|
|RiskReward||They use http://marked2app.com to convert from Markdown to finished doc.
They commit the docs to a private GitHub repo for collaboration while they are working.
|RiskReward||Anyway, foswiki uses TML, not markdown. Can you envisage a way I could collaborate with people this way?||[04:09]|
|gac410||That would be pretty difficult I suspect. Not sure how you could keep the Foswiki store and RCS (or plainfile) revision tracking in sync with github.
As a Foswiki store, git would have some challenges. The whole Repo is tracked, where as Foswiki maintains a completely independent revision history per topic.
|RiskReward||I guess, in a way, foswiki is the editor plus github combined. We can collaborate on a topic. The "style sheet" element is built in. We just need to print nice PDF's of topics.||[04:12]|
|gac410||There are a bunch of pdf generators that work pretty well. The grand-daddy of them is GenPDFAddOn. Newest is GenPDFWeasyPlugin
There is also the PublishContrib which can generate PDF of a collection of topics iirc.
|RiskReward||Thanks, I'll take a look. I have a "print version" button (?cover=print;), but I don't get my nice fonts in the rendered page.||[04:15]|
How are you setting the fonts?
|RiskReward||Yes, I specified some Google fonts for the headings etc, it's in view.dandi.tmpl
|gac410||Ah... is that your view.dandi template?||[04:20]|
|RiskReward||Yes, that's it.||[04:20]|
|gac410||so cover=print causes viewprint.pattern.tmpl and viewprint.tmp to be used. You need a viewprint.dandi.tmpl probably
But using css, etc. helps make a genpdf decision. the original GenPDFAddOn doesn't support css
|RiskReward||I'll take a look at a viewprint.dandi.tmpl option then. Thanks.
Should also mention I showed a webapp team (php developers) foswiki today and they were surprised and impressed.
They thought I must have written lot's of code to get the functionality, and when I showed them it was just wiki topics using macros, they went "wow"!
|gac410||It's pretty surprising what you can accomplish with Foswiki, especially with the query search||[04:25]|
|RiskReward||Sure is. Very "database-like".||[04:28]|
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|bgupta||Anyone know if this will be updated for 2.x? IE: I have a foswiki 1.0.9 running on Ubuntu from fosiki packages, and what to upgrade to a newer version..
SvenDowideit: I think it's your repo? Any plans to provide a migration path to 2.0.x?
(I understand it's probably a massive undertaking)
|jast||as far as I know nobody currently has the time to maintain the packages, let alone build reliable automatic migration to 2.x... sorry
foswiki isn't all too complicated to install manually, even if that's maybe not your favourite option
|bgupta||Hmm I'm willing to migrate to a different distro. .Is anything supported?||[13:37]|
|jast||I don't think we have packages for any distribution at this point||[13:37]|
|bgupta||Hmm I guess we're stuck on 1.0.9 for now.
(I used to maintain twiki from source 10 years ago on solaris, I hated it.. moving to linux, which had online software repos was such an amazing transition, I don't want to go back to managing from source.)
(The whole automatic dependency tracking in linux was the real blessing)
|jast||yeah, I know all about the advantages of packages... we run 100+ wikis here||[13:41]|
|bgupta||twiki/foswiki has a huge number of dependencies. I wonder did you perhaps "vendor" all the libraries to make managing that easier?||[13:42]|
|jast||most of the dependencies we've got (but not all) are available as Debian packages, but we still routinely install things from CPAN
granted, our wikis run a fair number of exotic plugins, so exotic dependencies are kind of to be expected
|bgupta||I think we've only got the spreadsheet plugin, but we don't really even use it anymore.
OK so a piece of feedback.. for small shops, foswiki has crossed into requiring too much work to maintain now that packages are no longer maintained, and one has to transition from packages to source..
I am leaning towards finding another wiki that's easier to support and do the painful jjob of converting wikisyntax. I'll check back before I pull the trigger, as I don't really have time to take on the migration now. (It was different when I worked at a big company and part of my job was maintaining wikis.)
(I've managed to stick to twiki/foswiki through multiple jobs spanning over a decade)
|jast||I'd *love* to be able to offer packages, but there's so much else to do, and not enough people to even do that||[13:50]|
|bgupta||the reality is you don't even need to support all distros. one would be enough. IE: If you want packages, run this distro.||[13:52]|
|jast||yeah, personally I don't acknowledge the existence of any distro other than Debian ;)||[13:53]|
|bgupta||I kinda changed my mind a bit when all the security bugs came out last year.. It made me really appreciate the 10 year LTS for EL based distros.||[13:54]|
|***||ChanServ sets mode: +o gac410||[13:54]|
|bgupta||(Well I still love Debian, but now see a role for CentOS at work.||[13:54]|
|gac410||The 10 year LTS of RHEL is going to be a problem for Foswiki going forward. We cannot stop all progress waiting for 10-year-old perl to catch up.||[13:58]|
|bgupta||gac410: You don't have to, make a dependency on this https://www.softwarecollections.org/en/
5.20.1 new enogh?
SCL supports all EL versions from 6 and up. (Until they EOL)
|gac410||is SCL supported by RedHat for people who buy RH support?
Anyway, unfortunately the bottom line on packaging, is that we need volunteers or sponsors to make it happen.
|bgupta||It will work fine without official support, but my understanding is that it has full RHAT blessing.||[14:04]|
|gac410||Cool, I'll have to remember to recommend that .. Big enterprises are funny though, They seem to be the ones that push back harder about supported software..||[14:06]|
|bgupta||Unfortunately my volunteering hours are completely tapped out.. I run a LUG and contribute to Debian.||[14:06]|
|gac410||we had one individual doing packaging as a volunteer. And he found other pastures. So we have no-one. And the packaging tools were his, and never contributed that I can find.||[14:07]|
|bgupta||I also run a consulting business..
packaging for what distros?
|gac410||He did debian and rpm based repos.||[14:07]|
|bgupta||was that Sven?||[14:07]|
|gac410||And occasionally wrapped a windows distro. Yes.||[14:08]|
|bgupta||or someone else?
he is still a moderator in this IRC channel?
|gac410||Sven. Yeah he lurks, but we never hear from him at all.
CDot... Did you see my update to Item13785 It really seems something is wrong with Meta but I can only recreate it on f.o
|FoswikiBot||http://foswiki.org/Tasks/Item13785 [ Item13785: ExtensionInstaller fails to replace files under some conditions. ]||[14:09]|
|bgupta||curious, what would it take to fund packaging?||[14:09]|
|gac410||tbh I really don't know. I've been the Release Manager for a few years now. But it's enough to build all the archives for default extensions. Packaging to be useful has to cover the 100's of extensions
we really need tools that can take the github source or our build.pl process and spit out a rpm or .deb.
|bgupta||gac410: Looks like RHAT support will provide support for SCL https://access.redhat.com/support/policy/updates/rhscl
(But you definately don't need the suport or a subscription to use it)
it works with CentOS too)
|JulianLevens||bgupta: I'd like to point you towards: https://github.com/Jlevens/FoswikiVagrant
and also: http://foswiki.org/Development/FoswikiVagrant
|gac410||bgupta: after our experiences with current packaging, my recommendation would be that we do NOT provide alternate packages, unless our open source build tools will generate the .tgz, .rpm and .deb automatically.||[14:15]|
|bgupta||gac410: I agree. Automation is a must.||[14:16]|
|JulianLevens||Well I am working on it, but it will take time||[14:16]|
|gac410||IMHO it's bad that the project is dependent upon a single person to package, and if unavailable, we have no way to release.||[14:16]|
|bgupta||I remember I checked in a year ago, and there was talk about migrating to git, and automated testing.||[14:17]|
|gac410||Also needs to use open tools checked into our own git repo, or generally available.
We are fully migrated to git, and we have automated tests that run every night.
|JulianLevens||I am not focussed on debian/redhat packaging but that could come||[14:17]|
|gac410||And we build a "nightly package" that appears if the tests pass successfully.
We also have someone build OSX packages ... once in a great while. I don't know them or how to contact. And as I understand it, there is someone building an unofficial FreeBSD Port for foswiki, no idea on that either.
Unfortunately the outstanding issues list for the debian packages is pretty sad: Foswiki:Tasks.DebianPackage
|FoswikiBot||http://foswiki.org/Tasks.DebianPackage [ DebianPackage ]||[14:25]|
|gac410||CDot ... Anyway, I left my debug code in place. It dumps the new text, then calls Meta->new(), .. Meta->saveAs() and then I dump meta->text() and it contains the old text, not the new text.
So calling Meta->new( ... $newtext ...) somehow gets overlayed with the existing topic content, and I cannot recreate it locally.
All I can come up with is Foswiki::Serialize::deserialize is for some reason not detecting the new text. But it works fine locally,
|gac410||Anyway, I think Item13785 needs to be a real blocker for 2.0.3, as the issue might be in Meta or Store.||[14:35]|
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|CDot||gac410: yeah. I have no idea what might be causing that.||[14:57]|
|gac410||It's rather scary that Meta is seemingly discarding set text.
Either that or for some reason Store is insisting on using the version in the ,v file
But the versions bump. So each time installer runs you get a new version of the Topic, just with the old text.
I figured maybe it was a fcgi issue, but I set up a local system with fcgi, and could not receate
Looking at the "rlog" results, every change going back in time is +1 -1 ... It's just not getting the new data.
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|MichaelDaum: Is the issue reported in Question1714 something that can be fixed for 2.0.3, or is it more structural and has to wait for 2.1 ?||[15:21]|
|MichaelDaum||gac410, hey there. Too risky to fix atm without lots of testing.||[15:32]|
|gac410||yeah that's what I was reading into your description of the issue. Include has some issues for sure, this adds another one :(
But figured I should check.
|MichaelDaum||there is lots of redundancy as far as I see||[15:33]|
|gac410||It has to do some funky stuff to fix up links, especially with cross-web includes.
CDot, vrurg created Foswiki:Development/CompleteMIMESupportInEmail with a patch. My initial tests, it looks good. Probably needs your utf-8 consideration, Lavr concerned about cpan deps, but they seem simple to me.
|FoswikiBot||http://foswiki.org/Development/CompleteMIMESupportInEmail [ CompleteMIMESupportInEmail ]||[15:39]|
|gac410||for once, some cpan that is available in pure perl and seems to be in all the major distros.||[15:41]|
|CDot||Email::MIME is pretty much a standard these days. I'm surprised it isn't per-installed on RH
I use it in other places, and have never had a problem (unlike Email::Folder, which stinks like a dead dog on a sunny day)
|gac410||I wonder if having Email::MIME available would give us some opportunity to directly use it elsewhere rather than rolling our own MIME parts in templates, etc.||[15:44]|
|MichaelDaum||+1 on Email::MIME||[15:46]|
|gac410||Anyway Vadim seems to be onto something here, and really nice to see another developer.||[15:46]|
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|Lynnwood||Anyone know how to prevent macros in data form fields from expanding when editing the form?||[16:28]|
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|foswiki_irc3||Question: I set up tikiwiki on a server, to see if it would be suitable for our own system documentation, but found the tikiwiki documentation to be absolutely horrible and full of errors. I'd like to swtich to something else and am considering foswiki.
If you were to compare the documentation, is foswiki's any better? I don't want to waste another month
|gac410||http://foswiki.org is a running wiki You can see the docs at Foswiki:System Foswiki:System.BeginnersStartHere for a slideshow||[22:27]|
|FoswikiBot||http://foswiki.org/System [ WebHome ] http://foswiki.org/System.BeginnersStartHere [ BeginnersStartHere ]||[22:27]|
|gac410||I am completely unfamiliar with tikiwiki, so I have nothing to compare to.
Foswiki is a "Structured wiki" Topics can have data forms attached and wiki applications can query the data, etc.
|foswiki_irc3||that's a great little slideshow. Thank you for providing that link. tiki's downfall for me was for example, explaining a menu item choice in admin module by just repeating the text itself, instead of explaining what the menu item DOES.
or, it would explain that you need to use markup like )) this (( to make a new page, then 2 sentences later it said to do it (( like this )). So which was it?
things like this drove me up the wall
fos' 20min tutorial looks well structured
|gac410||All I can say, give it a read, if you register, you can try stuff out on the Foswiki:Sandbox web. Site can be a bit slow at times .. we are under a constant bot load||[22:34]|
|FoswikiBot||http://foswiki.org/Sandbox [ WebHome ]||[22:34]|
|foswiki_irc3||Thanks gac410, will do||[22:35]|
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