#foswiki 2015-11-05,Thu

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WhoWhatWhen
Lynnwoodbingo: https://web.archive.org/web/20140606030145/http://foswiki.org/System/QuerySearchPatternCookbook [00:01]
gac410okay, it's back. [00:01]
Lynnwoodfrom 2014 [00:01]
gac410I copied it from the foswiki 1.1.9 install, which was migrated to 2.0. [00:01]
Lynnwoodalthough it does seem that these kinds of topics should not be in the System web if not part of distribution. [00:01]
gac410And yes, I did NOT copy the System web. [00:01]
Lynnwoodare there any other known one-off topics in foswiki.org System web?
Don't we have supplemental docs in Support web?
[00:02]
gac410Right, well it should probably be in Support, or maybe add it to the distribution if it's good quality and especially if referenced in topics we ship.
tbh, I didn't really check what was in system that was missing in 2.0, other than the obvious - WebLeftBar, WebBottomBar, etc.
[00:02]
LynnwoodWhat about moving it to support web, changing the reference in latest version of QuerySearch, and maybe just add a redirect on foswiki.org to catch links from older installations. [00:04]
gac410If it's valuable, let's just add it to the distribution.
hm I just compared the topic list.. ... I guess I should have checked for missing topics before. :(
[00:10]
Lynnwoodperhaps so...
in that way it could be updated to reflect latest capabilities of QUERY and QUERYSEARCH
VarQUERY is so complex (or potentially so)...
[00:12]
gac410If you have energy, want me to make a copy in Support so you can edit it there? Or I'll add it to the distro, so you can edit the TML on github.
Or I can add an ALLOWTOPICCHANGE so you can edit it in System.
[00:13]
Lynnwoodsure. add it to support and i'll take it on as learning task to update some and add to github. [00:14]
gac410Actually Sven had set up a DocumentationGroup for allowing editing on select system topics.
I added you to it, and I'll give that topic permissions.
Okay, you should be all set to just edit Foswiki:System.QuerySearchPatternCookbook
[00:15]
FoswikiBothttp://foswiki.org/System.QuerySearchPatternCookbook [ QuerySearchPatternCookbook ] [00:17]
gac410We can add it to the 2.0.3 manifest, [00:17]
Lynnwoodactually... it would seem that i have edit rights for the entire system web... [00:18]
gac410Ah... you must be in the AdminGroup [00:18]
Lynnwoodi think so
seniority gets you something... if not competence... ;-)
[00:18]
gac410yes. you can just edit. Though be sure to call out anything you change that needs to get into the distro, or the next update will lose it. [00:19]
Lynnwoodright. i'll add into my own brach of the distribution [00:19]
...... (idle for 25mn)
gac410CDot scrubbed a bunch of System topics he thought were useless. So there is a LOT of stuff missing from System. [00:44]
Lynnwoodit was probably the right thing to do... but we should figure an alternative location and not break docs. [00:45]
gac410well, the stuff he deleted was unrelated to the missing cookbook. That one was a new topic that I guess never got added. [00:46]
Lynnwoodoh, are you referring to topics that were in the distribution.
?
[00:46]
gac410yes. [00:46]
Lynnwoodic.. that's different. i guess no harm there. [00:46]
gac410just makes it a bit harder to find legitimate topics that need to be restored.
my inclination is to wait for complaints :D
One thing I realize I lost was all the WebStatistics topics for System web. Not sure they are of any value though so I"m not bothering with them.
[00:48]
Lynnwoodsure
right. i don't anybody is interested in going back to see old statistics...
don't think...
tired...
hitting my head against MetaDataPlugin all day.
[00:50]
gac410We can always regenerate, have all the event logs. for now not worth it. [00:52]
LynnwoodA plugin with lots of potential for applications, BUT [00:52]
gac410Never tried that one. [00:52]
Lynnwoodit appears not to follow any of the normal rendering order.
i just recently had a feature request that it seemed perfectly suited.
But after a couple of days working with it, i may have to abandon this track.
:-(
i'll be damned if i can figure out how it renders it's values. It almost appears that some of the rendering is done after the page loads... e.g. as with js.
There appears to be no possible way to test values of rendered data using escaped IF macros or the such.
i even tried to pass the rendered data to and INCLUDE... but it still doesn't compute.
Anyway... i'll ask Micha about it tomorrow to see if he can shed light.
[00:52]
gac410no idea, never looked at it. [00:56]
Lynnwoody, i've never seen a plugin macro that renders like this one. [00:56]
time to get off computer... later! [01:03]
gac410g'nigt [01:04]
............................. (idle for 2h22mn)
RiskRewardHi, got a strange problem with 2.0.2. The "Edit wiki text" button works well, but if a user just tries the "Edit" button it doesn't bring up an editor. [03:26]
gac410That's strange. No errors? just returns blank? [03:27]
RiskRewardIt returns an edit screen, with the "Edit help" dropdown available, and the save buttons along the bottom, but no editable text and no WYSIWYG tools. [03:28]
gac410what's your SKIN setting? for 2.0 it should be something like Set SKIN = natedit,pattern; hm...
Did you copy over your templates directory from 1.1.x ???
That would be bad. Major template changes in 2.0
[03:29]
RiskRewardDidn't copy over all the templates, just our one customisation view.dandi
Can't remember where set SKIN is
[03:30]
gac410It should be in Main.SitePreferences [03:30]
RiskRewardOK, it's Set SKIN = dandi,pattern [03:31]
gac410try adding natedit. Though it should be working even without natedit skin added.
dandi,natedit,pattern probably
[03:31]
RiskRewardStil no luck. This time, you don't get the "Edit Help" area. [03:34]
gac410I'm guessing that something got messed up in Templates directory. Also did you copy the System web ... that's another bad move. [03:36]
RiskRewardDefinitely didn't copy System web. Only copied view.dandi.tmpl to Templates. [03:38]
gac410hm Is this a public wiki? [03:39]
RiskRewardNo, only visible within our network. [03:40]
gac410Hm I wonder if one of the REST calls to populate the editor is failing.
Could you try an edit with the browser developer tools open - ... see if you get any 404's or other errors.
[03:41]
RiskRewardYep. Get 3 x 404 errors. failing to load TinyMCEPlugin js stuff. [03:43]
gac410That would do it.
That should all be in your pub/System/... directories
Again, a directory you should not have copied from your old system
[03:43]
RiskRewardWell, pretty sure I didn't copy them across. Unless the pl migrating script does it? [03:45]
gac410It shouldn't ,,, I hope,
We know that using bulk_copy against the System web will break it badly.
CharsetConverter shouldn't cause issues though
[03:46]
RiskRewardAll the System files have the same date and time.
Comparing old install to new one, dates and file sizes are different, so I'd guess they're not the same files?
[03:46]
gac410yeah. Best to focus on the 404 is the file missing or some other issue?
permissions?
[03:50]
RiskRewardFiles are present. Permissions are www-data:www-data -rw-r--r-- [03:52]
gac410sound right. [03:52]
RiskRewardOops, spoke too soon. Files are missing... [03:52]
gac410name one? [03:53]
RiskRewardThere is no editor_plugin_src.js in the new System directory [03:53]
gac410Could you give me the whole path ..../pub/System/...
(Trying to figure out if it's looking in the wrong place)
okay. That's not right. No such file
[03:53]
RiskReward(I just entered the address, but it hasn't shown up in my window here - did you get it?) [03:55]
gac410no.
never mind. That file exists.
[03:55]
RiskRewardTry: /pub/System/TinyMCEPlugin/plugins/foswikibuttons/editor_plugin_src.js [03:56]
gac410There are a bunch of them. Do you have any custom TINYMCEPLUGIN_... settings in your SitePreferences.txt? [03:56]
RiskRewardYou mean in Main.SitePreferences? [03:57]
gac410yes [03:57]
RiskRewardActually, yes, I have one: Set TINYMCEPLUGIN_INIT_TOPIC = Main.TinyMCEPlugin [03:58]
gac410Try commenting that out. Let all the TINYMCE settings come from System.SitePreference [03:59]
RiskRewardYep, that worked. [04:00]
gac410probably customized the editor sometime in the past.
Leave natedit in your skin settings. The new Natural wikitext editor is much nicer than the old text editor
[04:00]
RiskRewardYou're right. Thanks for your help. I'm persuading everyone to use the wiki text editor anyway.
Which brings me to an off topic question if you have a moment?
[04:01]
gac410sure. [04:03]
RiskRewardI met a guy yesterday who collaborates on documents with his business partner by writing them in markdown and using GIT. [04:04]
gac410yeah you mentioned that earlier [04:04]
RiskRewardThey actually use Atom.io to write, then another program to convert to PDF with styles applied. [04:05]
gac410git is pretty darn flexible. I use it for all my test installs so I can reset them to a standard state, even use it to track my /etc directory changes.
I'm not familiar with Atom.io
[04:05]
RiskRewardIt's an open source text editor, looks a bit like Sublime Text. [04:06]
gac410yeah I was just looking at the google hits,' [04:06]
RiskRewardThey use http://marked2app.com to convert from Markdown to finished doc.
They commit the docs to a private GitHub repo for collaboration while they are working.
[04:06]
gac410cool [04:08]
RiskRewardAnyway, foswiki uses TML, not markdown. Can you envisage a way I could collaborate with people this way? [04:09]
gac410That would be pretty difficult I suspect. Not sure how you could keep the Foswiki store and RCS (or plainfile) revision tracking in sync with github.
As a Foswiki store, git would have some challenges. The whole Repo is tracked, where as Foswiki maintains a completely independent revision history per topic.
[04:10]
RiskRewardI guess, in a way, foswiki is the editor plus github combined. We can collaborate on a topic. The "style sheet" element is built in. We just need to print nice PDF's of topics. [04:12]
gac410There are a bunch of pdf generators that work pretty well. The grand-daddy of them is GenPDFAddOn. Newest is GenPDFWeasyPlugin
There is also the PublishContrib which can generate PDF of a collection of topics iirc.
[04:14]
RiskRewardThanks, I'll take a look. I have a "print version" button (?cover=print;), but I don't get my nice fonts in the rendered page. [04:15]
gac410nice fonts?
How are you setting the fonts?
[04:16]
RiskRewardYes, I specified some Google fonts for the headings etc, it's in view.dandi.tmpl
Used %ADDTOZONE{}%, added javascript line to load Typekit (Adobe fonts, sorry, not Google); then call them in the CSS.
[04:17]
gac410Ah... is that your view.dandi template? [04:20]
RiskRewardYes, that's it. [04:20]
gac410so cover=print causes viewprint.pattern.tmpl and viewprint.tmp to be used. You need a viewprint.dandi.tmpl probably
But using css, etc. helps make a genpdf decision. the original GenPDFAddOn doesn't support css
[04:22]
RiskRewardI'll take a look at a viewprint.dandi.tmpl option then. Thanks.
Should also mention I showed a webapp team (php developers) foswiki today and they were surprised and impressed.
They thought I must have written lot's of code to get the functionality, and when I showed them it was just wiki topics using macros, they went "wow"!
[04:23]
gac410It's pretty surprising what you can accomplish with Foswiki, especially with the query search [04:25]
RiskRewardSure is. Very "database-like". [04:28]
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bguptaAnyone know if this will be updated for 2.x? IE: I have a foswiki 1.0.9 running on Ubuntu from fosiki packages, and what to upgrade to a newer version..
http://fosiki.com/Foswiki_debian/
SvenDowideit: I think it's your repo? Any plans to provide a migration path to 2.0.x?
(I understand it's probably a massive undertaking)
[13:32]
jastas far as I know nobody currently has the time to maintain the packages, let alone build reliable automatic migration to 2.x... sorry
foswiki isn't all too complicated to install manually, even if that's maybe not your favourite option
[13:36]
bguptaHmm I'm willing to migrate to a different distro. .Is anything supported? [13:37]
jastI don't think we have packages for any distribution at this point [13:37]
bguptaHmm I guess we're stuck on 1.0.9 for now.
(I used to maintain twiki from source 10 years ago on solaris, I hated it.. moving to linux, which had online software repos was such an amazing transition, I don't want to go back to managing from source.)
(The whole automatic dependency tracking in linux was the real blessing)
[13:38]
jastyeah, I know all about the advantages of packages... we run 100+ wikis here [13:41]
bguptatwiki/foswiki has a huge number of dependencies. I wonder did you perhaps "vendor" all the libraries to make managing that easier? [13:42]
jastmost of the dependencies we've got (but not all) are available as Debian packages, but we still routinely install things from CPAN
granted, our wikis run a fair number of exotic plugins, so exotic dependencies are kind of to be expected
[13:43]
bguptaI think we've only got the spreadsheet plugin, but we don't really even use it anymore.
OK so a piece of feedback.. for small shops, foswiki has crossed into requiring too much work to maintain now that packages are no longer maintained, and one has to transition from packages to source..
I am leaning towards finding another wiki that's easier to support and do the painful jjob of converting wikisyntax. I'll check back before I pull the trigger, as I don't really have time to take on the migration now. (It was different when I worked at a big company and part of my job was maintaining wikis.)
(I've managed to stick to twiki/foswiki through multiple jobs spanning over a decade)
[13:45]
jastI'd *love* to be able to offer packages, but there's so much else to do, and not enough people to even do that [13:50]
bguptathe reality is you don't even need to support all distros. one would be enough. IE: If you want packages, run this distro. [13:52]
jastyeah, personally I don't acknowledge the existence of any distro other than Debian ;) [13:53]
bguptaI kinda changed my mind a bit when all the security bugs came out last year.. It made me really appreciate the 10 year LTS for EL based distros. [13:54]
***ChanServ sets mode: +o gac410 [13:54]
bgupta(Well I still love Debian, but now see a role for CentOS at work. [13:54]
gac410The 10 year LTS of RHEL is going to be a problem for Foswiki going forward. We cannot stop all progress waiting for 10-year-old perl to catch up. [13:58]
bguptagac410: You don't have to, make a dependency on this https://www.softwarecollections.org/en/
5.20.1 new enogh?
https://www.softwarecollections.org/en/scls/?search=perl&policy=&repo=&order_by=-download_count&per_page=10
SCL supports all EL versions from 6 and up. (Until they EOL)
[14:01]
gac410is SCL supported by RedHat for people who buy RH support?
Anyway, unfortunately the bottom line on packaging, is that we need volunteers or sponsors to make it happen.
[14:03]
bguptaIt will work fine without official support, but my understanding is that it has full RHAT blessing. [14:04]
gac410Cool, I'll have to remember to recommend that .. Big enterprises are funny though, They seem to be the ones that push back harder about supported software.. [14:06]
bguptaUnfortunately my volunteering hours are completely tapped out.. I run a LUG and contribute to Debian. [14:06]
gac410we had one individual doing packaging as a volunteer. And he found other pastures. So we have no-one. And the packaging tools were his, and never contributed that I can find. [14:07]
bguptaI also run a consulting business..
hmm..
packaging for what distros?
[14:07]
gac410He did debian and rpm based repos. [14:07]
bguptawas that Sven? [14:07]
gac410And occasionally wrapped a windows distro. Yes. [14:08]
bguptaor someone else?
he is still a moderator in this IRC channel?
[14:08]
gac410Sven. Yeah he lurks, but we never hear from him at all.
CDot... Did you see my update to Item13785 It really seems something is wrong with Meta but I can only recreate it on f.o
[14:08]
FoswikiBothttp://foswiki.org/Tasks/Item13785 [ Item13785: ExtensionInstaller fails to replace files under some conditions. ] [14:09]
bguptacurious, what would it take to fund packaging? [14:09]
gac410tbh I really don't know. I've been the Release Manager for a few years now. But it's enough to build all the archives for default extensions. Packaging to be useful has to cover the 100's of extensions
we really need tools that can take the github source or our build.pl process and spit out a rpm or .deb.
[14:10]
bguptagac410: Looks like RHAT support will provide support for SCL https://access.redhat.com/support/policy/updates/rhscl
(But you definately don't need the suport or a subscription to use it)
it works with CentOS too)
[14:11]
JulianLevensbgupta: I'd like to point you towards: https://github.com/Jlevens/FoswikiVagrant
and also: http://foswiki.org/Development/FoswikiVagrant
[14:12]
gac410bgupta: after our experiences with current packaging, my recommendation would be that we do NOT provide alternate packages, unless our open source build tools will generate the .tgz, .rpm and .deb automatically. [14:15]
bguptagac410: I agree. Automation is a must. [14:16]
JulianLevensWell I am working on it, but it will take time [14:16]
gac410IMHO it's bad that the project is dependent upon a single person to package, and if unavailable, we have no way to release. [14:16]
bguptaI remember I checked in a year ago, and there was talk about migrating to git, and automated testing. [14:17]
gac410Also needs to use open tools checked into our own git repo, or generally available.
We are fully migrated to git, and we have automated tests that run every night.
[14:17]
JulianLevensI am not focussed on debian/redhat packaging but that could come [14:17]
gac410And we build a "nightly package" that appears if the tests pass successfully.
We also have someone build OSX packages ... once in a great while. I don't know them or how to contact. And as I understand it, there is someone building an unofficial FreeBSD Port for foswiki, no idea on that either.
Unfortunately the outstanding issues list for the debian packages is pretty sad: Foswiki:Tasks.DebianPackage
[14:18]
FoswikiBothttp://foswiki.org/Tasks.DebianPackage [ DebianPackage ] [14:25]
gac410CDot ... Anyway, I left my debug code in place. It dumps the new text, then calls Meta->new(), .. Meta->saveAs() and then I dump meta->text() and it contains the old text, not the new text.
So calling Meta->new( ... $newtext ...) somehow gets overlayed with the existing topic content, and I cannot recreate it locally.
All I can come up with is Foswiki::Serialize::deserialize is for some reason not detecting the new text. But it works fine locally,
[14:30]
FoswikiBothttp://trunk.foswiki.org/System/PerlDoc?module=Foswiki::Serialize [14:34]
gac410Anyway, I think Item13785 needs to be a real blocker for 2.0.3, as the issue might be in Meta or Store. [14:35]
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[14:43]
CDotgac410: yeah. I have no idea what might be causing that. [14:57]
gac410It's rather scary that Meta is seemingly discarding set text.
Either that or for some reason Store is insisting on using the version in the ,v file
But the versions bump. So each time installer runs you get a new version of the Topic, just with the old text.
I figured maybe it was a fcgi issue, but I set up a local system with fcgi, and could not receate
Looking at the "rlog" results, every change going back in time is +1 -1 ... It's just not getting the new data.
[14:58]
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MichaelDaum: Is the issue reported in Question1714 something that can be fixed for 2.0.3, or is it more structural and has to wait for 2.1 ? [15:21]
MichaelDaumgac410, hey there. Too risky to fix atm without lots of testing. [15:32]
gac410yeah that's what I was reading into your description of the issue. Include has some issues for sure, this adds another one :(
But figured I should check.
[15:33]
MichaelDaumthere is lots of redundancy as far as I see [15:33]
gac410It has to do some funky stuff to fix up links, especially with cross-web includes.
CDot, vrurg created Foswiki:Development/CompleteMIMESupportInEmail with a patch. My initial tests, it looks good. Probably needs your utf-8 consideration, Lavr concerned about cpan deps, but they seem simple to me.
[15:35]
FoswikiBothttp://foswiki.org/Development/CompleteMIMESupportInEmail [ CompleteMIMESupportInEmail ] [15:39]
gac410for once, some cpan that is available in pure perl and seems to be in all the major distros. [15:41]
CDotEmail::MIME is pretty much a standard these days. I'm surprised it isn't per-installed on RH
I use it in other places, and have never had a problem (unlike Email::Folder, which stinks like a dead dog on a sunny day)
[15:43]
gac410I wonder if having Email::MIME available would give us some opportunity to directly use it elsewhere rather than rolling our own MIME parts in templates, etc. [15:44]
CDotforsure [15:45]
MichaelDaum+1 on Email::MIME [15:46]
gac410Anyway Vadim seems to be onto something here, and really nice to see another developer. [15:46]
CDot:-) [15:47]
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LynnwoodAnyone know how to prevent macros in data form fields from expanding when editing the form? [16:28]
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foswiki_irc3hello all [22:24]
gac410hello foswiki_irc3 [22:24]
foswiki_irc3Question: I set up tikiwiki on a server, to see if it would be suitable for our own system documentation, but found the tikiwiki documentation to be absolutely horrible and full of errors. I'd like to swtich to something else and am considering foswiki.
If you were to compare the documentation, is foswiki's any better? I don't want to waste another month
thans
*thanks
[22:25]
gac410http://foswiki.org is a running wiki You can see the docs at Foswiki:System Foswiki:System.BeginnersStartHere for a slideshow [22:27]
FoswikiBothttp://foswiki.org/System [ WebHome ] http://foswiki.org/System.BeginnersStartHere [ BeginnersStartHere ] [22:27]
gac410I am completely unfamiliar with tikiwiki, so I have nothing to compare to.
Foswiki is a "Structured wiki" Topics can have data forms attached and wiki applications can query the data, etc.
[22:28]
foswiki_irc3that's a great little slideshow. Thank you for providing that link. tiki's downfall for me was for example, explaining a menu item choice in admin module by just repeating the text itself, instead of explaining what the menu item DOES.
or, it would explain that you need to use markup like )) this (( to make a new page, then 2 sentences later it said to do it (( like this )). So which was it?
things like this drove me up the wall
fos' 20min tutorial looks well structured
[22:32]
gac410All I can say, give it a read, if you register, you can try stuff out on the Foswiki:Sandbox web. Site can be a bit slow at times .. we are under a constant bot load [22:34]
FoswikiBothttp://foswiki.org/Sandbox [ WebHome ] [22:34]
foswiki_irc3Thanks gac410, will do [22:35]

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