#foswiki 2016-06-30,Thu

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WhoWhatWhen
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ChanServ sets mode: +o CDot [05:07]
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jastI still think the TMPL: prefix from skin templates isn't the ideal choice to also use for topic template expansion, just because both happen to be called 'templates' :) [07:09]
CDotjast: as I recall I invited everyone to propose an alternate. There is a namespace clash with the TMPL:P space, which would be good to avoid.
it's trivial to try something different; line 3554 of Foswiki.pm (or thereabouts)
+ || $_[0] =~ s/^TMPL://;
[07:12]
***ChanServ sets mode: +o MichaelDaum [07:14]
CDotI used TMPL because I though merging the namespaces was achievable, but I'm not so sure now because of the semantic difference between %TMPL:INCLUDE and %INCLUDE [07:14]
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jastthere's a semantic difference between rendering a skin template and expanding a topic template IMO
sorry for first chiming in at this stage, by the way... I haven't been able to stay on top of the deluge of e-mails I get
on the positive side, I believe whatever we decide to change to resolve the confusion and any semantic mix-ups will be a fairly small change
[07:45]
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MichaelDaumyes
I am still unsure what a TMPL:SEARCH does in a skin template: when will it be executed and in what context?
what if it expands to a couple of TMPL:DEFs
there are actually _two_ TMPL:Ps
(1) a macro executed during a request
(2) a static expansion executed during skin instantiation
you can switch from (1) to (2) by spanning TMPL:P's arguments across multiple lines, or via $percntTMPL:P{...}$percnt
expansion in (2) during skin instantiation is very powerful and fast for other reasons. i.e. overlays on the skin path.
now TMPL:SEARCH and what not ... I still can't get my head around these
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jastI believe the new TMPL: syntax is chiefly for topic template expansion [08:33]
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CDotit is, yes.
it will do nothing during skin template instantiation (will pass through the gut without digestion)
[10:14]
MichaelDaumthen I don't get what it is for. why not use the orig macro? [10:25]
CDotexample: you want to record the WIKIUSERNAME of the person who instantiated the template (e.g. created a new topic). %WIKIUSERNAME% will show the viewer; %TMPL:WIKIUSERNAME will show the creator. See? [10:35]
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MichaelDaumCDot, thats not particularly useful [10:56]
CDothttp://foswiki.org/Tasks/Item13909 and http://foswiki.org/Development/SupportAllMacrosInTemplateTopics before you jump to conclusions. If you still think it's "not particularly useful" then fine. [10:58]
FoswikiBot[ SupportAllMacrosInTemplateTopics ] [10:58]
***ChanServ sets mode: +o Lynnwood [11:04]
MichaelDaumCDot, I still don't understand the convincing killer use case. Please, could you outline a more real world example that the new syntax would solve?
btw I've added one for TMP:P in topic context to the proposal
[11:12]
CDotOK. My interest in it was originally piqued because I wanted to evaluate a Plugin macro statically when a topic was created. [11:13]
MichaelDaumseed it on topic creation [11:14]
CDot?
you mean modify the plugin?
[11:14]
MichaelDaumtopic templates [11:14]
CDotexplain? [11:15]
MichaelDaumauto-generate content on topic creation using macros [11:15]
CDotstill not getting any clearer [11:15]
MichaelDaum"I wanted to evaluate a Plugin macro statically when a topic was created" ... do you refer to seeding content dynamically while it is created the first time? [11:16]
CDotI have two macros that are peers. One I want to expand when the template is instantiated; the other I want to expand every time the topic is viewed. [11:16]
MichaelDaumso far so good. but why?
this is the technical effect. where is the real world use case?
[11:17]
CDotThe ability to "snapshot" aspects of system state when a topic is created. For example, stock price of three key stocks.
taken from a dynamic ticker service
[11:18]
MichaelDaumwe need to clarify the meaning of "template"
there are multiple of them
[11:19]
CDotyes. It is badly overloaded. [11:19]
MichaelDaum(1) template ~ blueprint for content
(2) part of a skin
[11:19]
CDotthat's why I started calling them "Skin Templates" and "Topic Templates"
still overloading "Templates", unfortunately, but better.
[11:19]
MichaelDaumcall it blueprint
for topic content
[11:20]
CDotyes, good term. [11:20]
MichaelDaumso which template are you referring to?
i.e. which one is it used in the proposal
[11:20]
CDottopic templates. Blueprints.
stencils.
frames.
[11:21]
MichaelDaumsnippets [11:21]
CDotpastiches. [11:21]
MichaelDaumyummies [11:21]
CDotperfect! Hencwforth to be referred to as "Yummies".
that should confuse the enemy
[11:22]
MichaelDaumYeminems
now TMPL:SEARCH is particularly misleading
TMPL is refering to (2) ... skin templates
wrong clue
[11:22]
CDotyes, that's one of the reasons jast doesn't like it, I think. And it's a fair point. [11:25]
MichaelDaumEXPAND:SEARCH makes more sense then [11:25]
CDothmm, yes, that's not bad, I hadn't thought of EXPAND. An alternative would be "EARLY".
EARLY:SEARCH
[11:25]
MichaelDaumverbs rule
SWING:MOJO
[11:25]
CDotadjectives rock
SEARCH is already a verb.
[11:26]
MichaelDaumfor properties. not for methods.
SEARCH actually refers to the result set more than the actual process of finding it
[11:26]
CDotoh, for a clear distinction between a process and the results of that process! [11:27]
MichaelDaum* Set TOPICCREATOR = %EXPAND::WIKIUSERNAME%
this is the real-world use case
[11:27]
CDotyes
I'm fine with "EXPAND", I was asking for suggestions. Anything is better than thiki's "EOTC_"
[11:27]
MichaelDaum%META:PREFERENCE{name="usd-to-euro" value="%25EXPAND:XCHANGERATES{...}%25"}% [11:28]
CDotnice one
I had thought of "INSTANTIATE" but it's far too hard to spell
[11:29]
MichaelDaumMichaelDaum adding "EXPAND" to the proposal [11:30]
warning: a user creates a topic with a %EXPAND:SEARCH{"find sensitive info"}% yummy
a later visitor might get access to info a normal %SEARCH{"find sensitive info"}% would not reveil
[11:42]
CDotyes, it's a risk, something template authors need to be aware of.
it would be fairly easy to block certain macros being used this way, but TBH I think it would be counter-productive - it would just make things more complicated.
[11:57]
MichaelDaumy
"solved by docu"
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"whoopsies" [12:17]
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gac410Anyone familiar with Dreamhost around? Why on earth does Foswiki:Support.ShorterUrlCookbook recommend copying the "view" script to "xview" [13:16]
FoswikiBothttps://foswiki.org/Support.ShorterUrlCookbook [ ShorterUrlCookbook ] [13:16]
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gac410MichaelDaum: Do you have a moment to join us on the #foswiki-admin channel? [14:10]
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GithubBot[distro] vrurg pushed 2 new commits to Item13897: https://git.io/vop2M
distro/Item13897 a6db13d Vadim Belman: Item13897: All basic tests are passing......
distro/Item13897 11a27f8 Vadim Belman: Item13897: Forgotten fix.
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FoswikiBothttps://foswiki.org/Tasks/Item13897 [ Item13897: Implement ImproveOOModel proposal. ] [16:50]

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