#foswiki 2009-06-02,Tue

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WhoWhatWhen
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SvenDowideit_mmmm
do we have a theme set of fowikiForms :/
and foswikiTables
[00:44]
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wbnivno
wanna contribute one?
[00:57]
SvenDowideit_humpf :)
SvenDowideit_ is still confused why we use .foswiki classes rather than styling the table elements
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wbnivSvenDowideit_: good question
i don't know the answer
probably need to ask Arthur
[03:06]
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http://foswiki.org/Support/Question181 [03:31]
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wbnivhttp://www.geekchart.com/you [05:30]
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wbnivhttp://foswiki.org/Support/Question176
anyone know anything about raw socket code no longer working
?
[05:56]
CDotwbniv: no; first I heard was yesterday [05:57]
wbnivi ran into it when i was dusting off the TWikiWebInstaller (or whatever it was called) [05:58]
CDotI thought I had written some tests..... maybe not [05:58]
wbnivat the fork
i mean, at fork time
[05:58]
CDotany idea what's going on? [05:58]
wbnivmy only guess atm is that some version of perl broke backwards compatibility
i stumped me for a while at the beginning, but then i just installed LWP
cuz i didn't have time to deal with it properly
or didn't know what to do about it, more like
[05:58]
CDotunderstood. [05:59]
wbnivtho i'm also fine with simply requiring LWP ;) [05:59]
CDotyeah, but the sockets impl is so trivial, i guess we ought to keep it ticking over [06:00]
wbniv(and/or i thought i was doing something wrong) [06:00]
CDotthere's no particular reason *not* to
hmmm, actually, what am I saying. LWP is such a basic thing these days.
[06:00]
wbnivas long as it works and is standards compliant
i remember twiki being all messed up about http versions at one point
[06:00]
CDotah, "standards compliance" is easy, when you only implement a tiny subset of the standard [06:01]
wbnivit was argued on twiki.org long ago to deprecate the raw socket code
but whatever, i dunno
[06:01]
CDotdo you recall the outcome? betcha it was u-no-hoo arguing against it [06:02]
wbnivi _think_ *you* were arguing for that, actually ;-)
yes, of course
that was the outcome
and nothing happened
[06:02]
CDotas usual [06:02]
wbnivright [06:02]
CDotok, so the obvious thing to do is to have a quick look, see if we can see why it's snafu
and if it looks too hard to fix, deprecate the sucker
^deprecate^excise
CDot is reminding himself what the "Net" module actually does
I have a feeling I wrote the tests for it in FuncTests.pm
[06:03]
wbnivi think we want to make LWP available to verything
that is, to help the web 2.0 effect ;-) heh
to be able to let other plugins and core rely on it being there
(just like jquery)
wbniv ducks
[06:05]
CDotno need to duck; what you say makes sense to me
thing that makes me wonder is, what plugins would actually *use* it
[06:07]
wbniv(well, i meant ducking about jquery ;-) )
HeadlinesPlugin ?
[06:08]
CDotpresumably anything using web services [06:08]
wbnivWebProxyPlugin
yeah, exactly
[06:08]
CDotso what do those guys do now? [06:08]
wbnivhttp://twiki.org/download.html - interestingly, twiki has noticed
configure's get more extensions does not work well without LWP
dunno, haven't looked at the code. maybe they simply require LWP
[06:08]
CDot\O/ [06:08]
wbnivalso, isn't CommentPlugin less than optimal without LWP ? [06:09]
CDotnah, not relevant
just the web services carry the weight
configure uses its own hacked version of the Foswiki::Net function for sockets
[06:09]
wbnivsigh, i can't find the "discussion" on twiki.org. oh well, no matter [06:10]
CDotok, what are the cons?
some innocen trying to install on a webhost can't, because LWP isn't installed?
[06:10]
wbnivso does http://svn.foswiki.org/trunk/TWikiInstallerContrib/foswiki-install [06:11]
CDotLWP requires a compiler, so is harder than most to install? [06:11]
wbniv(has its own version of getUrl() copied from twiki lib)
[01:11] <CDot> some innocen trying to install on a webhost can't, because LWP isn't installed?
that's pretty much it, afaik
lemme check on impl
[06:11]
CDotI found the relevant test for getExternalResource
talk about simplistic..... :-(
[06:12]
wbnivhttp://deps.cpantesters.org/?module=LWP&perl=5.8.4&os=any+OS , fwiw
wbniv grepping getExternalResource
wbniv finds nothing in the test/ directory
[06:13]
CDotFuncTests tests getExternalResource
but it's a stunningly crap test
CDot is crafting a better one
ah, i just noticed someone (probably me) has broken the getExternalResource test
good old perl doesn't apply strictures to symbols not in the current module, so doesn't detect the fuckup
CDot hates perl
[06:15]
interesting; $LWP::VERSION isn't defined
hmmm. OK, the Sockets test fails, but only because the header has no charset
I wonder why....
wbniv: any suggestions how to reproduce this problem you were seeing?
cos my (very very basic) unit test for sockets works fine
[06:27]
BabarCDot: strictures have sense only in the current module. Fully defined variables can't be checked, they aren't yours. [06:35]
CDotI know. Doesn't make perl any less crap.
hmmm, wbniv, I discovered that the sockets code is broken iff HTTP::Response is not installed
if it *is* installed, it all works
[06:36]
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CDotCDot needs a URL that reliable returns an error status code [06:40]
BabarHTTP::Response is part of LWP, so the socket code is useless :) [06:41]
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CDotno, that's not true. I found several sites where HTTP::Response was installed, but LWP wasn't
HTTP::Response is pure perl, so can be installed without a compiler
which *may* explain it
[06:43]
BabarBabar wonders how you can only install HTTP::Response... [06:44]
CDotperl -MCPAN -e install HTTP::Response [06:44]
Babarjust copy the .pm maybe :) [06:44]
CDotanyway, that's not the point
two things are bugging me; first, the weird status code, and second, how LWP deduces the encoding of the data it receives
cos LWP receives the same Content-type as the sockets code, and there is no charset= specification
[06:45]
BabarBabar hasn't followed all the discussion
Babar reads backlog
[06:47]
CDotI conclude that LWP parses the html and extracts the charset from the <html>
which begs the question; what charset does LWP report when there is a charset specified in the header, and a different charset in the <html> tag?
CDot tries to forget about that
[06:48]
Babarthat's W3C recommendation
so maybe one action would be to set HTTP::Response as a requirement in MDEPENDENCIES?
[06:50]
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Fallbackhi there [07:28]
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CDotBabar: that would be one action, yes [07:40]
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CDotHowever i just had a grope around in the internals of the sockets impl, and found a couple of problems
so I'll check it in, see if there are still problems.
[07:40]
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Babarbut you said it won't work without HTTP::Response
oh right, it should work
[07:42]
CDotsure it works [07:44]
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Babarif ( $httpHeader =~ s/^HTTP\/[\d.]+\s(\d+)\d\d\s(.*)$// ) {
this looks fishy
[07:45]
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CDotwhy? [07:46]
Babarnormal headers should be something like: HTTP/1.1 200 OK, right?
so $1 will contain 2, not 200, right?
[07:47]
CDotI mean, it's wrong, yes, and that's the problem
but that's not the only bug
[07:47]
BabarBabar doubts you need another pair of eyes to find the bugs you already found
so I go back to... hum... what was I doing again?
right, solving today's 7 mistakes
[07:47]
CDotBabar: aha; the 7 mistakes of successful managers..... [07:49]
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CDotwbniv: did you raise a task for the Sockets problems? [08:14]
Babarah, now you want to commit :) [08:14]
CDotI do, I do, it's true [08:14]
wbniv: ok, I'll take that as a "no" then [08:25]
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stoefenhello folks. i have a question - a simple one. hope u can help me
when I try the following syntax %SEARCH{"attachments[date >= d2n('2007-01-01')"}% i get no results, but there are definitly topics with attachements. whats wrong?
i have this example from: http://www.lavrsen.dk/foswiki/bin/view/System/QuerySearch
[09:13]
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CDotstoefen: you need %SEARCH{"attachments[date >= d2n('2007-01-01')" type="query"}% [09:25]
stoefenah nice one! thanks a lot ;-) [09:26]
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[11:00]
antgelhi, don't want to be a muppet, but how do i use SpreadsheetPlugin to subtract R$ROW(-2):C$COLUMN() from R$ROW(-1):C$COLUMN() ? i can't seem to work out the simple formula [11:02]
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[11:12]
OliverKruegerantgel: There was an $EVAL or $EVALUATE or something like that.
its $EVAL()
[11:20]
$EVAL( $T(R$ROW(-1):C$COLUMN()) - $T(R$ROW(-2):C$COLUMN()) )
untested, never tried and just guessed. ;)
[11:26]
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Babarshouldn't he be using $CALC()$ ? [11:50]
antgelOliverKrueger: thanks - great stuff [11:58]
OliverKruegerBabar: I cannot see any $CALC() in %CALC%. At least, its not documented. [12:02]
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Babaroh right, it's $EVAL within a %CALC%, my bad [12:05]
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MartinKaufmannI haven't been in touch with the Foswiki development for a while. So some of my questions might be ovsolete.
We're still using a TWiki 4.1.2 system at work and we like to upgrade to Foswiki.
One problem I encountered when I last checked was the TagMePlugin which wasn't ported to FW. There was some talk about a new/different approach in FW. Does anyone know the status of this project?
[13:59]
OliverKruegerHi MartinKaufmann [14:01]
MartinKaufmannHi! [14:01]
OliverKruegerI talked to Colas a few weeks ago about the TMP.
He was the last was editing this beast.
[14:01]
SvenDowideitif you have a mysql server, you could try TagsPlugin :) [14:02]
MartinKaufmannWe're using tags a lot and it would be a pity to lose them all. [14:02]
OliverKruegerHi Sven. [14:02]
SvenDowideiti wonder if i wrote the code to import tagme tags into it [14:02]
OliverKruegerYes, we talked about Svens solution aswell. [14:02]
SvenDowideitheya :) [14:02]
OliverKruegerIf I am right, Colas planned to write a migration script from TMP to TagsPlugin instead of continuing the development of TMP. [14:03]
MartinKaufmannWhat's the advantage of using mysql for tagging? [14:03]
SvenDowideitshould be trivial to make a rest handler do it
scalability and speed mostly
[14:03]
MartinKaufmannOK, thanks. [14:03]
SvenDowideiti wrote it using MySQL's 'best practice' docs for tagging
and it is slightly the basis for a db query backend i was working on at the time
[14:04]
MartinKaufmannI guess I could install mysql on our server if required. [14:04]
OliverKruegerSven correct me if I am wrong, but TagsPlugin is not that user-centric as TMP. [14:04]
MartinKaufmannHowever, a migrating solution would come in handy. [14:04]
SvenDowideitat one stage it also did BDB or something
OliverKrueger, i have no idea what you mean :/
tagsplugin records each user's taags
[14:05]
OliverKruegerWith TMP only the same user can manipulate his/her tags. [14:05]
SvenDowideitand you can search on all tags of just yours
same
tags are recorded against a cuid
manoman, sounds like i need to do more doccoing :)
[14:05]
OliverKruegerNa, I havent installed ur Plugin yet. My bad. :)
I hoped, it does it different. ;)
[14:06]
SvenDowideitfunnest thing i did with it is to tage things with country names
but display them as the country's flag
[14:07]
OliverKrueger:)
I often hear a feature request like: we want to coordinate our work with tags (within a group).
[14:07]
SvenDowideitpfft, peasy
so long as a group has a cuid
you should be able to make that happen
[14:08]
OliverKruegerah, ok. :)
I wasnt aware, that a cuid can refer to a group.
[14:08]
SvenDowideiti'm not sure it can atm
but it would not be hard to make work
[14:09]
MartinKaufmannMaybe it's just me but I don't understand the two sentences under "Usage" on Foswiki:Extensions.TagsPlugin at all. [14:09]
foswikibothttp://foswiki.org/Extensions.TagsPlugin [14:09]
OliverKruegerWhat does the "u" stand for in cuid? ;) [14:09]
SvenDowideituser
Martin, yeah, me neither atm
and i wrote it
[14:09]
OliverKruegerwell, c(u|g)id is not a valid identifier. ;) [14:10]
MartinKaufmannSounds interesting... ;-) [14:10]
SvenDowideitOliverKrueger, i'm not 100% sure you're right
as a groupname isa wikiword, it may actually qualify asa cuid
[14:10]
MartinKaufmannTWiki's documentation is rather lengthy but at least I can understand the purpose of the plugin right from the start. [14:11]
OliverKrueger"installing TagsPlugin" is on my todo list for the next days. :) [14:11]
SvenDowideityeah, TagsPlugin was actually written as a small part of a much more complex beast
and reading the docco, too much of the bigger project has leaked into the doc
but basically, its intended as a proper tagging system, whereas tagme is actually a sort of categorisation system
[14:11]
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SvenDowideitwbniv, is the most recent user i know of (of TagsPlugin)
mmm, i have to go to bed - laters
[14:14]
OliverKruegerg'nite Sven [14:15]
MartinKaufmannGood night and thanks.
Just a question you (or someone else) might be able to answer later: What's the difference between a tagging and a categorisation system?
[14:15]
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BabarBabar would say one is unique, whereas the first one is not
but TagMe isn't unique, iirc
[14:17]
CDot"tagging" can be used for "categorisation"
you can associate tags with categories
or, you can associate attributes with tags, and then define categories as collections of attributes
tagging is a very low level concept. Categorisation is usually much higher level (IMHO)
[14:18]
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Babarand where do you fit taxonomy? :)
Babar thinks MichaelDaum_ likes to call his plugins taxonomy plugins
[14:21]
MartinKaufmannBut isn't tagging just the tool (or one of the tools) to allow categorisation?
So you can't really compare the two terms.
[14:22]
CDotTagging is a tool, correct
and you can use it for categorisation, but that's not it's only purpose
[14:22]
Babars/'//2 [14:23]
MartinKaufmannOK, I think I got that. [14:24]
ktwilighteg categorisation can be topics, whilst taggings can be its subtopics
or categorisations can be topics, and tagging is used for different themes within those topics
[14:25]
CDotfor example, you might use tagging for bookmarks. You can argue that is a process of categorisation. It is, because it divides the world into "things I often reference" and "other things" [14:26]
ktwilighttagging allows multiple associations. i kinda doubt categorisation can be. [14:27]
CDot"categorisation" is usually applied to sorting things into multiple (more than two) categories. [14:27]
ktwilightthough different orgs implement things differently. [14:27]
CDotktwilight: right
ktwilight: did you answer my Q about CaptchaPlugin?
[14:27]
ktwilightWP groups categories and tags together, i.e. your tags are also your categories, vice versa
CDot, uh, saw, but you left, so i thought bler :)
[14:27]
OliverKruegerktwilight: WP? [14:28]
ktwilighton why i didn't use perl's captcha module, 'cuz i can't wrap my head around it. i gave myself about a day's worth and couldn't get around it. so i just extended the-then implementation
OliverKrueger, wordpress
[14:29]
OliverKruegerthx [14:29]
CDotktwilight: why isn't it in SVN? Do you consider it "dead"? [14:33]
OliverKruegerHi wbniv. [14:34]
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[14:34]
ktwilightCDot, hm, i thought it's in SVN, must have missed that. it's consider dead for me - don't use it anymore. [14:38]
OliverKruegerwbniv: besides the broken unit test, does the indexing process work on your machine? [14:38]
CDotktwilight: so you have abandoned it? It is maintainerless? [14:39]
ktwilightyes and yes [14:42]
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CDotk, thx. might as well obsolete it, then [14:45]
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ktwilightunfortunately, yea :( [14:58]
CDotof course, you could always "do your bit" for Foswiki, and port it
CDot runs away again
[15:01]
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ktwilightsounds like an idea... *puts it in his long todo list* [15:08]
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Babar*at the very bottom* [15:09]
ktwilight:) [15:12]
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[15:15]
MichaelDaumcategories is all about controlled vocabulary that you define apriori
as a result recall and precision of search is much higher than tag search or normal enterprise search
tags - i.e. social tags - are adhoc
bottom up
they are about taste and whatever is relevant to a person
precision and recall of a tag base search is quite low - compareable to normal fulltext search
on an intranet with tech specs and the like documentation you'd prefer to categorized these instead of gathering "i_like_that" tags
tags have no structure among each other
there *are* some tagging tools that introduce "tag groups"
which adds a way to deal with ambiguity such as "mac", "osx", "tiger" etc
[15:16]
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MichaelDaumcategories try to eliminate this problem right from the beginning
categories are organized in hierarchies very often
these hierarchies are not necessarily strict
one can compare categories with foswiki's webs ... which are obviously much more flexible
a topic can only be part of one web
a topic can be filed into multiple categories at the same time
[15:21]
MartinKaufmannTo me that's more the difference between taxonomy and folksonomy. Tags can be top-down as well. [15:23]
MichaelDaumtaxonomy -> categories .... folksonomy -> tags [15:24]
MartinKaufmannOK, thanks.
So, TagsPlugin is more focussed on folksonomy and TagMePlugin more on taxonomy?
[15:24]
MichaelDaumI don't know TagsPlugin
TagMePlugin is infact pretty screwed
it has the disadvantage of both
tagme requires an apriori definition of tags
which is not what folksonomies are intended for
on the other side tagme "tags" are not as powerful as true categories
you can't group them into hierarchies
tagmeplugin's interface is pretty bad
tagme tags are stored out of band. you can't mash up its search with normal wiki apps ... as far as I have tried ...
[15:25]
MartinKaufmannIn a smallish entrerprise environment, I prefer taxonomy over folksonomy. But maybe that's just because I've never seen a working folksonomy in small scale. [15:29]
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MichaelDaumfolksonomies work fine for personal use infact
like product research
[15:29]
MartinKaufmannYes, they work for personal use because you tend to use the same consistent terms. [15:30]
MichaelDaumtaxonomies are always in danger of being outdated, not overing your latest business requirements, or research field.
covering
[15:30]
MartinKaufmannI don't want to defend TMP - I'm just looking for a way to migrate the tags (or categories) we've already got in TWiki. [15:31]
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[16:02]
EugenMayerBabar: iam banned from the admin channel [16:10]
OliverKruegerunbanned [16:11]
EugenMayerMy client still tells me, that iam banned [16:13]
OliverKruegerI think, I unbanned your IP now. [16:15]
BabarEugenMayer: then unban yourself
how many times will I have to say that... 1. register your nick with NickServ: /msg nickserv identify password, 2. Unban yourself with chanserv: /msg chanserv unban #foswiki-admin, 3. Join the admin channel: /join #foswiki-admin
[16:16]
carlo1that channel is for admins of foswiki.org I assume? [16:20]
EugenMayerBabar: acutall did not know i can unban myself from remote [16:20]
OliverKruegercarlo1: yep.
carlo1: some system internals and passwords are traded there.
[16:21]
carlo1When did we start this channel? [16:21]
ktwilight_carlo1, also for security and infra team [16:21]
EugenMayerBabar: i remember you linking some good gid tutroials [16:21]
carlo1good to know [16:21]
Babarmostly really boring stuff :) [16:21]
EugenMayerdo you have any links left? [16:21]
BabarEugenMayer: /msg chanserv help :) [16:21]
carlo1completely missed it [16:22]
Babarand I think freenode.org has some good tuto too [16:22]
carlo1but I was busy with other things for a while now [16:22]
Babarcarlo1: I think ktwilight_ created it almost from the start, so we could coordonate things that shouldn't be totally public [16:23]
carlo1k [16:23]
Babarlike testing releases for foswiki.org, planning infra for downloads, etc... [16:23]
carlo1question on access control and fututre strategy... [16:24]
EugenMayerThings like security issues are discussed there [16:24]
Babarwe try to keep most of the interesting stuff in here :) [16:24]
carlo1are we going to keep this ALLOW / DENY stuff
or is there something smarter planned?
[16:24]
EugenMayerIs there a discussion about replacing the access contol? [16:25]
carlo1not that I'm the one who could judge what smart is...
no, not that I'm aware of
[16:25]
Babaryou want ACLs? :) [16:25]
carlo1I'm playing with ideas for a future interface [16:25]
EugenMayeri would like to centralize ACLs, not keeping them in topics anymore. This enables us using some other ways of access control [16:26]
carlo1of foswiki [16:26]
EugenMayerACLs with realms, that would be awesome [16:26]
carlo1and my major theme is to remove the error prone text bases inputs for settings and restrictions and alike
which means having some visual controls to do sort of things
therefore I was wondering if there was something planned which differs from the current context
How would the centralized ACL's work?
[16:26]
EugenMayerWell on topic base, a topic which has rows
each row is a grant for a topic ( r / w /d ) paired with a realm
[16:28]
carlo1I mean can I still start allow/restrict actions starting from a topic or would I need to go to some adminn place? [16:29]
BabarBabar got bit by that today... [16:29]
EugenMayeryou can have different realms which can define grants on topics [16:29]
Babara user used some lame template, so he filled in the ALLOWTOPICCHANGE with the topic name...
and got locked out
[16:29]
carlo1Babar: yes, stuff like that makes foswiki so geeky
for the non-techies
[16:30]
EugenMayercarlo1: Well you click on "acces rights" while looking at a topic,. Then you can choses r/w/d for any group and having a search field for adding users to that list, again with r/w/d [16:30]
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carlo1I like how confluence handles topic restrictions
from an interface point of view
there make a pretty good job to allow access handling
for dummies
[16:32]
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MichaelDaumcarlo1, see http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Codev/ChangePrivilegesTopicAction [16:33]
carlo1but there concept is not that complex as foswikis [16:33]
MichaelDaumtoo bad this topic is lost on foswiki.org
see the "manage collaboration" screen in there
not that hard to map onto foswiki's acls
[16:33]
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carlo1...which is a not what I'd like to see [16:35]
EugenMayerI dont like it at all. This is what we currently have in the plugin of Crawford
It is already mapped
[16:35]
MichaelDaumI don't like WebpreferencesPlugin either [16:35]
EugenMayeriam not remembering how the plugin is named [16:35]
MichaelDaumits gui is pretty messy [16:35]
carlo1I have some interface drafts but I'm struggling to get the Allow/Deny stuff in it [16:36]
EugenMayerThere is a addition, its pretty messy woprking with groups and users
carlo1: look at drupal :)
[16:36]
MichaelDaumwell this proposal at t.o is close to wordpress actually [16:37]
EugenMayerTheir right management is much more complex then ours and they are able to handle it with a GUI [16:37]
carlo1It all come down to the question of how much flexibility you really need as a user [16:37]
MichaelDaumusing "informal" descriptions of the most common use cases [16:37]
EugenMayerYeah, thats something i also like Michael. Right-Sets for common uses [16:37]
carlo1MichealDaum: do you have some screenshots of that GUI? [16:37]
MichaelDaumsee mid page
"Manage Collaboration"
[16:38]
carlo1yes, that's similar to my draft and what confluence does [16:38]
MichaelDaumxactly
I've got some ajax toolbox that allows to have an autocompletion box for selecting users and groups
[16:38]
carlo1the problem is the mock up handles restrictions only [16:39]
MichaelDauminstead of this "select" button [16:39]
carlo1allowance is not part of it [16:39]
EugenMayerFirst off, i think it makes it much easier, if you let the user choose, if he wants to grant rights on base of groups or users and not combined [16:39]
MichaelDaum"users how may edit -> anyone"
what is missing is a "Default" option
falling back to what the workspace/web is configured to
[16:40]
EugenMayerWhat is actually simply deleting all settings [16:41]
MichaelDaumthe gui's options need to be pre-selected with what is either stored into the topic and/or is seeded via WebPreferences [16:41]
EugenMayer"all ACL settings" [16:41]
MichaelDaumunfortunately you don't know where a setting came from, so that might get tricky in the details [16:42]
EugenMayerMichael i would not try to make a gui for the admin
i would try to make a gui for the user.
[16:42]
carlo1yes, I want a GUI for the user
a simple one
[16:43]
EugenMayerIf you preselect theWebPrefs ACLs which are inherited, you get a much to complecated setup in many cases
The user, if he likes to restrict something
[16:44]
carlo1problem is that the concept of ALLOW / DENY makes it harder [16:44]
MichaelDaumthis Just TWikiGuest is a bit iritating as it is impl'ed as Just, %WIKIUSER% which translates to "Just me" in a way [16:44]
EugenMayeris thinking in whitelists
carlo1: the ALLO / DENY way is pretty powerfull, the idea of the GUI is to hide this properly and only show a simple interface to the user
[16:44]
carlo1a simple one would be DENY only [16:45]
EugenMayerwhich is a whitelist in most cases, while ALLOW/ DENY is a combination of white and blacklists..what is not handleable for users [16:45]
carlo1exactly [16:46]
EugenMayerNo, in that cases, you would need to know, who else has access
ALLOW=Eugen
means only Eugen has access
[16:46]
MichaelDaumthe mapping between infomral and real acls is actually straight forward from what I see [16:46]
carlo1ah, yes you're right
i mixed things up
[16:46]
EugenMayercarlo1: yeah, thats exactly the point...even you mixed it up
and i look at the ACL defintion every time i write Web-Preferences
[16:46]
carlo1I have just "restrictions" in my mock up
like restrict to: ...
a) me
b) other users
c) groups
[16:47]
EugenMayerExactly
maybe i should screencast you the way the GUI of drupal does it, so you can catch up some ideas
[16:47]
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carlo1would be nice [16:48]
LavrCDot - I am just curious. The Net.pm fixes - what were the symptoms for the user of this bug? [16:48]
EugenMayerBut my gotomeeting account has expired [16:48]
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LavrAnd Hi to Carlo/Michael/Eugen by the way :-) [16:49]
EugenMayerHi Kenneth
Stopped i-playing :)
'?
[16:49]
LavrI am iPlaying all the time.
I love that little device
[16:50]
carlo1hi kenneth [16:51]
LavrOnly thing missing is that an IRC client will disconnect the minute you check your email or does something else. [16:51]
MichaelDaum_gotta go [16:51]
carlo1cia micheal
ciao
[16:51]
LavrBut there should be good news soon. The 3.0 software for iPhone should add PUSH so a program can idle in the background and still be connected and receive data on a socket.
Exactly for chat / IRC type software
So hopefully within a month or two I can have IRC running in the background like mail and calendar does now.
But the user interface on an iPhone is absolutely perfect. It works so incredibly well.
[16:52]
OliverKruegertyping on an iPhone works well? even with longer chats/texts? [16:54]
carlo1I'm always fascinated on the impact the style of languege has on an interface [16:54]
LavrAn iPhone is still a small handheld device. It will never be like a 10 finger keypad.
But it works very well and the way they let the keypad change with context and language is incredible.
[16:55]
OliverKruegeris it "good enough"? [16:55]
carlo1access concepts are a pretty good example for this [16:55]
OliverKruegerOliverKrueger has to buy a new mobile in the next few months... [16:56]
LavrThe two missing things all talk about on iPhone are - browser cannot show java or flash, and you cannot send MMS.
MMS gets added in 3.0. And I do not care. It is an over-priced service. You can send same picture in an email for free on the 3G data connection.
[16:56]
OliverKruegerI exchanged about 2 MMS since it was introduced. - Too expensive here. [16:57]
LavrThe missing java means that I cannot home bank but besides that I do not miss it. [16:58]
EugenMayerLavr: i miss, that iPhone has to few free software compared to PPCs [16:58]
OliverKruegerJava or JS? [16:58]
EugenMayerand the Interface of TouchFlow is a least as good as the iPhone one
and they cost -200€
[16:58]
LavrThe iPhone handles both JS and CSS 100% perfect. And the Safari browser in iPhone has a kick ass UI. [16:58]
EugenMayerIf apple would not consistently lock their customers down to their software, i would sometime consider to by some i`ed [16:59]
OliverKruegerIm not sure, if I ever activated Java support in my browser... :) [16:59]
LavrEugen. The locking down is not as bad as it used to be. [17:00]
EugenMayerYeah Kenneth, when you start the unlock war with apple [17:00]
OliverKruegerCan you develop JS apps for it? ;) [17:00]
EugenMayerI simply hate the concept of even trying [17:00]
LavrSince they introduced the App Store there are now 10000s of applications you can download. [17:00]
EugenMayerLavr: how mayn for free? :) [17:01]
LavrAnd they cost typically 1-3 euros. And many are free. [17:01]
OliverKruegerIs there an (open) SDK? [17:01]
EugenMayerOh, ok. [17:01]
LavrThere is an SDK yes.
But Apple is still at the gate approving the software. But seeing all the not very serious shit in the store I think the barrier is low.
[17:01]
EugenMayerIts just to expensive [17:03]
LavrAt the positive side of this monopoly thing is that it all works so seamlessly. Installing, updating - it is so fantasticly simple and fast and you do not care about paying 3 euros for an IRC client. [17:03]
EugenMayerhow much does an extra battery cost e.g.? [17:03]
LavrExtra battery?? Hehe. You mean an external battery? [17:03]
EugenMayerah you cant exachange the bat? [17:03]
LavrThe battery is integrated. You need to go to a service shop to change battery [17:03]
EugenMayerCDot: haha :) [17:03]
LavrOr buy a kit with the tools. [17:03]
EugenMayerLavr: no comment :) [17:03]
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[17:04]
LavrCDot I think they also look for stuff that can unlock the monopoly. [17:04]
OliverKruegerIs there already a skype client for the iphone? :) [17:05]
LavrSkype for iPhone does not work in 3G mode. Only on Wifi. And the software directly says it is a license issue. [17:05]
OliverKruegertoo bad... ;) [17:05]
EugenMayerWorks on my phone
as well as softphones
[17:06]
LavrThe phone companies hate skype and try to do everything to block Skype [17:06]
OliverKruegersure
so, you need a vpn client, too. ;)
[17:06]
EugenMayerWell iam sure, in the near futere ( +1 or 2 years)
the most hated thing will be asterisk
you dont need anything else as UMTS or Internet connection to telephone for free
no ISDN, no mobile-phone-contract, no analog phone, no VOIP
And the most scaring thing for the phone companies is, you phone the way, that you are always at home, even when you call from alaska
auto-searching the cheapest connection to your destination live. This is scaring
[17:07]
LavrDinner time. BBL. [17:10]
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CDotah, neat. I think I just worked out how to use the DBCacheContrib to accelerate standard Foswiki %SEARCH{type="query"}% queries :-) [17:19]
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EugenMayerOliverKrueger|aw: ping [20:13]
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[20:16]
nimbiusgot a problem...every time i edit my personal left bar it wont save it. [20:22]
OliverKruegerEugenMayer: pong [20:22]
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OliverKruegernimbius: any error messages? [20:23]
nimbiusnot displayed to the browser. [20:23]
OliverKruegerbut in the webserver logs? [20:23]
nimbiusnothing in apache or in the foswiki warn.
im wondering if this doesnt have something to do with the way ive added users.
basically its infering who the user is from LDAP.
[20:27]
OliverKruegeryou should have an edit or save line in logs/log200906.txt [20:28]
nimbiusnimbius checks
yup
i have view edit and save entries
unfortunately my new left bar never shows up.
[20:29]
OliverKruegerBut does the topic exists? [20:30]
nimbiusyes indeed, it does... [20:31]
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OliverKruegerPlease put a %WIKINAME% on a topic and see, what it expands to.
probably your view script is "unauthenticated".
[20:32]
nimbius: Do you use TemplateLogin or ApacheLogin (or sth else) as LoginManager? [20:37]
nimbiusapachelogin
OliverKrueger my wikiname was displayed properly.
[20:45]
OliverKruegerI guess, you did not change any expert options? (change the name or the Main web or the like?) [20:47]
nimbiusnothing that i can recall. [20:48]
OliverKruegerJust to make sure: please test %WIKIUSERNAME% and %USERNAME%, too.
Did you make any changes to the template / skin, which includes the personal LeftBar?
[20:49]
nimbiusi know at some point i had thrashed around attempting to disable leftbar entirely for a web...perhaps i altered something naughty.
i can edit the admin user left bar and that works.
just not the nimbius leftbar.
[20:51]
OliverKruegercan you read the nimbius leftbar with the nimbius user? [20:53]
nimbiusyes [20:53]
OliverKrueger(access restrictions)
ok
[20:53]
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nimbiusit just never populates as my left bar. [20:54]
OliverKruegerDo you have a WebLeftBar topic in the current web?
fallback: in Main web?
[20:55]
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OliverKruegerfallback: Main.WebLeftBarExample [20:56]
nimbiusyes, i have an example leftbar. [20:57]
OliverKruegerDoes it have sth like this on the top?
%INCLUDE{"%IF{"context can_login" then="%SYSTEMWEB%.WebLeftBarLogin" else="<nop>"}%" warn="off"}%
[20:57]
nimbius%INCLUDE{"%IF{"context can_login" then="%SYSTEMWEB%.WebLeftBarLogin" else="<nop>"}%" warn="off"}%
exactly.
[20:58]
OliverKruegerDid you change that file?
topic
[20:58]
nimbiusi dont believe i did.
the string matches what you had entered.
[20:59]
OliverKruegerok
Do you have a System.WebLeftBarLogin topic?
[20:59]
nimbiusnimbius checking
getting closer.
tried to open the topic
Can't use an undefined value as an ARRAY reference
[20:59]
OliverKruegeradd a ?raw=all to the url
Mine has this content: http://pastebin.com/d54c26c77 (may differ depending on the version of your PatternSkin)
[21:00]
nimbiushttp://pastebin.com/d5f81e076 [21:02]
OliverKruegerOk, it still includes your LeftBar.
But if there are problems when you try to render/view that page, that might be the reason for your bug.
c'n'p the content of that topic to some TestTopic and simplify it, till it works.
But I guess, the problem is one of the %IF clauses.
Your auth/user-subsystem is not working correctly.
[21:03]
nimbiuslooks to be an issue in system, as it affects it all the way to the top. [21:07]
OliverKruegerother parts of the system may be affected aswell.
Which UserMapper, PasswordManager and/or LoginManasger do you use?
Any non-standard?
[21:07]
nimbiusnope, i have it authenticating through apache [21:09]
OliverKruegerWhat are the exact values for the three lines? [21:11]
nimbiustopicusermappiong [21:12]
OliverKruegerok [21:12]
nimbiusloginmanager is apache
passwordmanager is none
.
[21:13]
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nimbiuswere trusting the auth from apache essentially. [21:13]
OliverKruegerok [21:13]
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OliverKruegerthen....
I dont know.
[21:14]
nimbiusdo i need to enable allowloginname?
i can restore the System data area from tar.gz and see if that solves the issue.
[21:14]
OliverKruegerbut keep a copy of your current state.
Do you get WikiNames from the apache auth?
or login names which needs to be mapped to wikinames?
If you already have WikiNames, you do not need to enable AllowLoginName.
[21:15]
nimbiusnono, i get short names used for logins. [21:17]
LynnwoodDoes anyone know how to invoke a custom edit form (as would be set by EDIT_TEMPLATE setting) via urlparam? [21:17]
OliverKruegerLynnwood: I dont think you can set the edit template via urlparam. [21:18]
Lynnwoodi was afraid you were going to say that.
but i could swear i've seen it done...
[21:18]
OliverKruegernimbius: Is your nimbius user listed in Main.WikiUsers ?
Lynnwood: with custom edit form you do not mean "just the form part", do you?
[21:18]
nimbiusyes
i have my full name and then shortname 'nimbius' after it.
[21:19]
OliverKruegerok, looks good. [21:20]
nimbiushowever on login it asks if i want to create the topic for my home. [21:20]
OliverKruegerpls enable the AllowLoginNames toggle. [21:20]
LynnwoodOliverKrueger: no, afraid not.
rather a complete custom form editor.
[21:20]
OliverKruegerLynnwood: You may want to ask Michaeldaum. I think, he uses edit templates in his workbench / other projects. [21:21]
nimbiuswait, ive got a twikiusers with all my old users
and a wikiusers.
[21:21]
OliverKruegernimbius: Im not sure, if the TWikiCompatibilityPlugin interacts on that topic. [21:21]
LynnwoodOliverKrueger: Yes, i use similar frameworks.
i'll look at some of his apps and maybe i'll find it.
[21:22]
OliverKruegerI havent written an edit template yet. [21:22]
Lynnwoodit's not too difficult and can be very useful
for adding js and such
special field relations...
[21:23]
OliverKruegeryep, its on my long todo list... :) [21:23]
Lynnwoodconditional display of fields [21:23]
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[21:24]
Lynnwoodi think i answered my question
it appears that the url param "template=Web.EditForm" does it.
where it references a topic called Web.EditFormTemplate
gotta run.
this isn't documented afaik
[21:33]
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[21:36]
MartinCleaverquestion: I have a bunch of topics in web, e.g. 01Oct2008 01Sep2008 02Apr2009 02Dec2008 02Jan2009 02Jun2009 02May2009
how do I sort them according to date in topic name?
This is different to the topic meta data
[21:36]
OliverKruegerrename them to 2009-06-18 ...? [21:37]
MartinCleaverI have 1000s of topics, and links like this
ok, well I suspect there's obviously no easy way then
[21:39]
OliverKruegerwriting a plugin? [21:40]
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MartinCleaversure, anything is possible with code and lots of time [21:41]
OliverKruegeryou cannot sort it numerical or alphanumerical directly.
you have to parse them.
[21:42]
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OliverKruegerProbably parse/rewrite them with CALC and then pipe it into the FilterPlugin. [21:43]
MartinCleavery, maybe tableplugin has an option [21:43]
OliverKruegerFORMATLIST [21:44]
MartinCleaveroh, interesting
thanks, will look
must dash
[21:46]
OliverKruegergood luck. :) [21:47]
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[22:00]
wbnivOliverKrueger: i don't know how well (kinosearch) works. i didn't install it or anything after the tests failed
is it working at all for you?
[22:09]
OliverKruegerwbniv: no, not working.
cannot even run an initial indexing.
[22:10]
wbnivLynnwood: maybe u want action=form on your url
eg, http://example.com/bin/edit/Sandbox/ThingAUTOINC1?templatetopic=ThingTopicEditTemplate;formtemplate=ThingTemplate;action=form;_T=060412
ah, not quite what you're looking for
wbniv continues reading the scrollback
[16:34] <Lynnwood> it appears that the url param "template=Web.EditForm" does it.
interesting
OliverKrueger: that sucks :(
[22:12]
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