#foswiki 2010-04-08,Thu

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WhoWhatWhen
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wbniv|zZzwhat are the "best" formats for $VERSION and $RELEASE ?
i'm doing some cleanup in ChartPlugin
(incl. grabbing fixes from PTh :) )
it has
$VERSION = '$Rev: 13790 $';
$RELEASE = '13 Mar 2010';
[04:33]
gac410I believe version should remain as the svn version number. Although 13790 sounds like a twiki svn number.
Release is IIRC your choice - but I prefer a numbering approach instead of date. but others are more experienced in this.
[04:37]
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wbniv|zZzi'll put a version x.y.z version number before the date, i think
wbniv|zZz waves, belatedly :/
[04:38]
i think most of that conversation happened in email
wbniv|zZz checks
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wbnivno, not checking right now
re-distracted with the actual fixing and patching :)
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[07:24]
alphanethi, is there a META title in Foswiki? I remember seeing a way to change a document TITLE either in Foswiki or TWiki. [07:25]
EugenMayeralphanet: you can rename a topic? [07:27]
alphanetEugenMayer: it looks it was some meta-data.
EugenMayer: not the document file name itself
[07:28]
EugenMayeri have no idea what you are talking about. AFAIK there is exactly one title :) [07:29]
alphanetEugenMayer: ok, this is also what I found out by googling. [07:29]
MartinKaufmannalphanet: You might be using a custom form. [07:30]
alphanetMartinKaufmann: didn't look like the usual form editor
MartinKaufmann: but it could be
MartinKaufmann: hmm, what happens if I change the default document creation to include a form?
MartinKaufmann: that could be it
in case you wonder, what I am trying to do is to give adequate <title> to documents generated through PublishPlugin
in 2006 I wrote a set of patches for TWiki to use either THISDOCUMENTNAME (variable), or the first --+, or to use the document name, decapitalized and spaced.
maybe I should revive them (in a configurable way)
[07:30]
CDotalphanet: IIRC %PAGETITLE% is used to populate the <title>
check the templates.
[07:34]
alphanetthanks, let's see [07:34]
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alphanetCDot: something which is always unclear for me: if I use the "publish" skin, and P{"pagetitle"} is used within the *publish* files in the templates/directory, but never defined with a DEF{"pagetitle"}, what happens?
CDot: is the %pagetitle% or %PAGETITLE% variable expanded>?
[07:38]
CDot%TMPL:P{"pagetitle"}% is totally unrelated to %PAGETITLE% [07:38]
alphanetok :) [07:38]
CDot%TMPL:P{"doesnotexist"}% expands to the empty string [07:39]
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CDot%PAGETITLE% and %pagetitle% are totally unrelated [07:39]
MichaelDaumalphanet, which skin are you using? [07:40]
alphanetMichaelDaum: publish, aka mine's [07:41]
MichaelDaumah ok
so normally there are three things to make seo and foswiki happy
htmltitle, topic title, topic name
the topic name is the kind of ID for the page, also used in the url
the topic title is a feature of DBCachePlugin and NatSkin to display a free-form title whenever linking to the topic
the html title is something that among the topic title may also contain the site's or company's name
[07:41]
alphanetok, that's probably where I saw this, with NatSkin [07:43]
MichaelDaumlike "My latest blog entry - Frank's Blog"
the topic title feature has been discussed a couple of times to bring it into the core ... alas ...
[07:43]
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alphanetok
MichaelDaum: what happens if you do a %TMPL:P{"windowtitle"}% in a template, in a skin where windowtitle was never defined? you get the html title?
[07:45]
MichaelDaumin NatSkin this is %HTMLTITLE% and %TOPICTITLE% ... if you attached a form to a topic and it contains a TopicTitle formfield, this one will be used.
well you need sensible defaults of course
[07:47]
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alphanetMichaelDaum: where I am confused, is that I can't see any definition of windowtitle except in files not from my skin, and no relation to it either in the Foswiki code lib. Or is maybe foswiki.tmpl used even in a skin?
(it definitely works if I define windowtitle myself in foswiki.publish.tmpl)
[07:50]
MichaelDaumsearch for <title> ....</title> in the tmpl files
that's where the html title materializes
[07:53]
alphanetof course. [07:54]
MichaelDaum:) [07:54]
alphanetAgain my question: if I do not define <title> AT ALL in my *.SKIN-NAME.tmpl files, is foswiki.tmpl sourced anyway before the skin? [07:54]
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alphanetbecause my skin was not outputing any <title>, but there was one. It was calling %TMPL:P{"windowtitle"}%, however this macro was not defined within my skin.
now, if I define (or redefine?) %TMPL:DEF{"windowtitle"}%<title>%THISDOCTITLE%</title>%TMPL:END% it works.
(except from the usual HTML data injection)
[07:55]
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alphanetanyway, someone must have been defining this macro, but I don't know who. Let me find.
ok, definitely, foswiki.tmpl is sourced before the skin specific files.
this is where my windowtitle was coming from.
so now I just need to write a plugin to: define %THISDOCTITLE%, if not defined by the current document, to be the first ---+, or the title spaced and decapitalized.
[08:00]
wdenkCDot: You are the expert for TocPlugin? [08:04]
CDotwdenk: I wrote it. However I haven't looked at it for years, so couldn't claim to be an expert. [08:07]
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wdenkCDot: I have some problems. An entry "%SECTION0{name=ELDKAvailability}% ELDK Availability" results in "<A href="ELDKAvailability">3.1. <a href="/foswiki/bin/view/Knowhow/DULG/ELDK">ELDK</a> Availability</A>", i. e. only the "3.1" is the correct link, the "ELDK" part points to another topic ("ELDK"), and the remainder of the line is no link at all. This happens for some of the entries, but not for all, and I cannot really figure out when it happens or how to avoi [08:09]
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CDotmight be related to the section name not being a wikiword? dunno, I'm guessing
oh, no, I see; the ELDK link is created by Foswiki, using "acronym linking"
it treats any sequence of 3 or more upper-case characters as an acronym, if a topic of the same name exists
nothing to do with TocPlugin.
[08:11]
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[08:19]
wdenkCDot: Indeed. "%SECTION0{name=ELDKAvailability}% <nop>ELDK Availability" fixes this issue. Thanks.
CDot: another question - in our old setup we had a somewhat ugly hack to add "Prev" / "Home" / "Next" buttons at the bottom of the pages. Is there any such feature available in the recent version? I didn't find anything like that...
[08:22]
CDotrecent version of what? [08:24]
wdenkTocPlugin
...and Foswiki, of course.
[08:24]
ArthurClemensSvenDowideit: I have done more fixes to the autosearch test but I get a couple of bugs I cannot explain. perhaps something is wrong in the core search [08:26]
CDothighly unlikely, given that (1) no one ever asked for the feature and (2) no one has made any changes to TocPlugin for a long time (apart from porting it)
wdenk: perhaps you could beautify your hack and contribute it back.
[08:26]
wdenkCDot: yes, guess that's what I'll have to do then. [08:36]
alphanetok, well, finally I patched PublishPlugin (and it will probably be rejected :->) [08:44]
wdenkalphanet: are the patches available anywhere? [08:54]
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alphanetwdenk: I will report them ask Tasks when they are tested [08:58]
wdenkalphanet: I'm asking because PublishPlugin is the next one on my list after I get TocPlugin working again... [08:59]
alphanetwdenk: ok :)
wdenk: those are new functionnality patches
[08:59]
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SvenDowideitArthurClemens, coolieo - thanks for doing what you have - I'll take a look this w/e and see what else is busted :)
mmm, can i have a refund from mozilla inc? my firefox keeps dying.
[10:31]
ArthurClemensy, I still have to do the TestCaseAutoFormattedSearchDetails tests, probably tonight [10:33]
SvenDowideiti thought that they all passed last w/e - and assumed the breakages were all tmpl related, but given what I found on tuesday wrt INCLUDE inside header/footer, i'm not sure whats up or down atm (the issue I found is from the meta/store refactor from almost a year ago now :/)
SvenDowideit wants to know if the apple dual link dvi can be converted to 2 normal dvi's to allow for 3 monitors :/
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CDotSvenDowideit: your refund from Mozilla will probably come in the form of a free copy of IE 6....... [10:56]
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[10:58]
joe__hi, is there a quick way to enable CommentPlugin for all Topics in a Web? thanks! [11:02]
CDotjoe__: quickest way would be to set a VIEW_TEMPLATE for the web [11:04]
joe__ok i'll try thank - thanks [11:05]
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[11:29]
wdenkCDot: I have a patch for TocPlugin that seems to work for me - what shall I do with it? Post it on foswiki-discuss? With Cc: to you? [11:35]
CDotno. Raise a task. [11:37]
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[12:01]
wdenkCDot: is there a way to attach a file to a task? Or how can I include a patch? [12:06]
CDotwdenk: tasks are just topics. Attach files as normal. [12:07]
wdenkCDot: see Item8863: Add TOCBUTTONS feature for TocPlugin [12:10]
CDotwdenk: that looks fine to me, though there is no user documentation? Once you have user docs, go ahead and commit it.
not sure why you need the "dulg" template; shouldn't that be incorporated into another template?
[12:21]
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[12:29]
wdenkCDot: in my case I need this feature just in one web (and it's subwebs), and I didn't want to mess with any global templates. Any suggestion where to add this? I mean, would adding this to view.nat.tmpl be any better? [12:42]
ArthurClemenswdenk: create a skin template file, for instance view.issue.tmpl and write the skin path: Set SKIN = issue,nat
otherwise you will loose your template change next update of natskin
[12:48]
wdenkArthurClemens: OK. Thanks. [12:49]
ArthurClemenswdenk: I have created an online book template for my wife: http://dekko.nl/STATE/ [12:50]
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ArthurClemensit uses an adapted jquery plugin for navigation
the navigation numbers are fed by a SEARCH
so each page has a "short title" (for the nav) and "long title" (for the link at the bottom and the page title)
in a data form
[12:51]
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[12:59]
wdenkCDot: I have >>%SECTION0{name="ELDKDownload"}% Downloading the ELDK<< in one topic, and >>%REF{type=Section,topic="ELDKDownload",name="ELDKDownload"}%<< in another one, but I get: "Reference ELDKDownload:Section:ELDKDownload not satisfied." other indentically looking entries work fine. What can cause this? [13:06]
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[13:10]
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pharveyI am studying rails' nested forms support. They already went through a lot of pain arriving at an acceptable solution in late 2008.
form validation needs some thinking about.
[13:27]
ArthurClemensI thought nested forms are not possible [13:34]
pharveyArthurClemens, why?
I have nested forms "working" :}
[13:37]
ArthurClemensThere can be several forms in a single document, but the FORM element can't be nested: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/html3/forms.html [13:38]
pharveyI group form elements into divs that have JSON annotations that some jquery then applies to the element names
so when a group of elements belong to a "sub" topic; they get prefixed with RelatedTopic:0:MyInputField
there's a savehandler that converts the numbered prefixes back to real topic names
of course, this does mean that the generated HTML does not validate. I depend on javascript to clean up. This needs deeper work in the Form API
in rails the nested form elements are named with arbitrary keys that get mapped back into real DB ids at the server
[13:39]
ArthurClemensI see [13:42]
pharveyso, "nested" in a UI sense, not html. There is still only one root <form>
UI/data model
It is my goal in a few months to release a few experimental plugins that form an easy "wizard"-esque workflow which allows users to make drag & drop forms for data entry that are semantically rich (xml view template and xml dump of topic sets) and the forms can have nested/repeating elements
without users having to learn any Foswiki-isms
[m]any perhaps
sadly this is distracting from working on wysiwyg but it seems this is more urgent (people can live with _yetanother wiki markup_ )
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hasta84Hey there, where can I find information on how to use the rest service of foswiki?
I want to remotely from another application add a topic with some meta information
[14:05]
pharveyhasta84, in what sense - are you writing a plugin? [14:06]
hasta84no, no plugin [14:06]
pharveyI'm afraid we don't yet have restful APIs for manipulating topics in Foswiki. You will want to POST to the /bin/save script instead. [14:06]
hasta84I need to automatically add a topic from outside
ah okay
can I add meta data there too?
[14:06]
pharveyyes [14:07]
hasta84fine [14:07]
pharveyhttp://foswiki.org/System/CommandAndCGIScripts#save [14:07]
ArthurClemenspharvey: it would be great if we could sync so I could use this for FormPlugin [14:08]
pharveyhasta84, you will need to have a DataForm topic defined somewhere in your wiki and specify it with formtemplate param in the POST [14:08]
hasta84thank you very much! [14:09]
pharveyotherwise save will ignore the additional FieldName params [14:09]
hasta84mhh hope I will get this to work [14:10]
pharveyArthurClemens, my implementation is really messy - I am trying to think of how to do it "properly" :/ I think we need a better Foswiki::Form API fundamentally. And maybe offer a different way of doing DataForms that separates data model from validation/representation
hasta84, the hard part is strikeone (CSRF protection) validation
[14:10]
ArthurClemensI agree [14:10]
hasta84Is there also a way I can generate another page like a table of content from the meta data? [14:10]
pharveyFormFieldListPlugin might do what you want [14:11]
ArthurClemenshasta84: which meta data? [14:15]
pharveyhasta84: with CSRF validation, check out http://foswiki.org/Development/HowToIntegrateWithRequestValidation
hasta84, if you are doing javascript, might be worth checking out http://foswiki.org/Extensions/HijaxPlugin - but the author is still re-working it, and I have a feeling he will do some big updates soon
[14:16]
hasta84pharvey: it would be a request from php [14:18]
pharveyok, np
pharvey tries to get his head around php as a Foswiki client ;-)
ArthurClemens, any creative ideas on what a new approach to DataForms might look like?
Or should we focus on the Perl API first?
[14:19]
ArthurClemensI think so, but some brainstorming... I would imagine a data form composer to easily select the title, data type, default values and last but not least the ability of logic: if you select this value from a dropdown, show that field
might look at yahoo pipes
[14:22]
hasta84don't ask me why my lead developer decided to use a perl wiki in a mostly php only environment, where it was clear that there will be such problems... ;) [14:23]
ArthurClemensthe argument "it is perl, so you can connect with everything"?
anything
[14:24]
pharveyI wonder if I can push a new core Foswiki DataForms concept to better enable "semantic web" use of Foswiki. It would require more attributes on each %META:FIELD and some extra "columns" in the DataForm def
but probably this should be done as a plugin.
[14:29]
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pharveyArthurClemens: %META:FIELD{name="Location" definition="Applications.CustomerSiteLocation" representation="Applications/FieldTemplates.GoogleMap" value="... google map data ..."}% [14:34]
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ArthurClemensthe problem with current data forms is that the ID is also the label. If you want to change the label you must change the ID. Then existing topic entries get invalidated.
the name or ID could be fixed, but the label should be dynamic
[14:36]
wdenkCDot: It seems TocPlugin has problems with topic names that are not wikiwords, like "ELDKDownload" in my example above. Is this a known issue? [14:36]
pharveyYes, this is very true. I have to do crusty things to fake dynamic labels
ArthurClemens: It would be okay if [[ThisWasTheID][And This Was The Label]] but it's opposite in reality
[14:37]
hasta84ArthurClemens: But if it is perl and I can connect it with everything, how can I connect it best with php to add a topic? [14:40]
ArthurClemensin what context do you create a topic? through a form? [14:41]
hasta84no there is no form, if someone calls a specific php script, that script checks if the topic is existent, otherwise creates it and gives back the link ( In my case an Adobe Acrobat Plugin calls that specific php script )
I would use an other way, maybe directly requesting an api from foswiki if there would be any
don't know how I can solve that otherwise
[14:43]
pharveyhasta84, working with POSTs to /bin/save is "really easy" except that you have to mess with authentication and CSRF validation [14:44]
hasta84also the php gather other information, the Acrobat plugin needs [14:45]
ArthurClemensI think you can switch off CSRF at the cost of less security [14:45]
hasta84okay, I didn't get how I can mess with authentication and validation
mhh.. how can I switch of CSRF?
[14:45]
ArthurClemensin configure [14:46]
hasta84It's internal only so this wouldn't be an issue [14:46]
ArthurClemensin trunk it is section "security"
don't know how it used to be called
[14:46]
pharveyyou need to use /bin/logon (POST username/pass credentials) to obtain a session cookie [14:46]
hasta84ok, that could work, will try immediately
thank you very much
[14:47]
pharveyg'night [14:51]
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wdenkCDot: Sorry, I was wrong. Actually it is all %SECTION0 entries that do now work with %REF - %SECTION1 etc works fine. [14:57]
MartinKaufmannhasta84: If you can write to your file system using PHP, you can also create a new topic as plain text file. That's all it is anyway.
I know it's not the proper way but it works...
[15:01]
ArthurClemensWhy isn't that the proper way? It is that easy by design [15:05]
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hasta84Martin: at this time I have access to the foswiki files with php, but it is not sure it will stay that way, on the other side I don't like messing with the structure, also if I want to add meta data by script to an existing topic i would have to replicate the version management [15:20]
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hasta84What does this say: There was a problem retrieving http://localhost/foswiki/bin/rest/WysiwygPlugin/tml2html: GENERAL 0 [15:45]
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[16:08]
pharveyhasta84: there was a problem converting HTML to TML. I have seen this happen when it tries to map fancy characters from HTML/UTF-8 that don't exist in the configured local/charset
it would be useful to share the stack trace that is generated in the apache error log (and/or foswiki warn log)
this is an urgent bug for Foswiki 1.1
I have to say, FastCGI is utter crap. It is broken on out-of-the-box Ubuntu 9.04 and 9.10 - http://foswiki.org/Support/Faq18
we should polish ModPerlEngineContrib as the "best practice" perl accelerator.
[16:16]
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MichaelDaumpharvey, why is it crap? I use it exclusively & all the time? [16:21]
pharveyit isn't maintained [16:21]
MichaelDaumthere are actually two "fast cgis"
fastcgi and fcgi
[16:22]
pharveyand which do you use? [16:22]
MichaelDaumfastcgi [16:23]
pharveyfastcgi is broken and I must compile from unofficial, not-properly-released sources every time
every ubuntu 9.04 and recently 9.10 server exhibits this keepalive timeout bug
official packaged version doesn't work. I have to compile from source
unreleased source
[16:23]
MichaelDaumFastCGI module for the Apache 2.4.6-1 as it comes with ubuntu [16:24]
pharveythat is the one that is broken [16:24]
MichaelDaumhow does the breakage manifest? [16:24]
pharveyI wrote it up at http://foswiki.org/Support/Faq18 [16:25]
MichaelDaumhm, never ever had this problem at all [16:25]
pharveywow, then I am just very unlucky :)
I did not have this problem on SuSE
you do not use Perl 5.10 do you?
[16:26]
gac410Gentoo moved to mod_fastcgi-2.4.7_pre0910052141 at least in part due to that issue - as I recall [16:26]
MichaelDaumwhats your FastCgiConfig, pharvey [16:26]
pharveymaybe it is a Perl 5.10 + FastCGI 2.4.6 interaction.
as per ApacheConfigGenerator
I have never made this work on ubuntu, no matter what fiddling of configs I use
[16:26]
MichaelDaumnever used that one... [16:27]
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MichaelDaumvery strange. fastcgi is really easy-going to install. done it a couple of times for clients. [16:28]
pharvey2.4.6 was released in 2007
ubuntu will not package 2.4.7 I assume because it isn't "officially" released
the CHANGES file lists this bug and others as fixed in 2.4.7
MichaelDaum, do any of them use Perl 5.10?
[16:28]
MichaelDaumsure
are you using this fastcgi: http://www.fastcgi.com ?
[16:29]
pharveyhttp://www.fastcgi.com/dist/mod_fastcgi-SNAP-0910052141.tar.gz
that is the "fixed" 2.4.7
[16:30]
MichaelDaumhttp://www.fastcgi.com/mod_fastcgi/docs/mod_fastcgi.html [16:30]
pharveyI have wasted many, many hours
I have been through those docs
AFAICT it is a bug of 2.4.6
[16:31]
MichaelDaumnever ever had problems, really. might be I am using a config that doesn't show the error [16:31]
pharveythe bugfix does say... "under *unique* application timing and response size conditions" [16:32]
CDotpharvey: I have also had problems with fastcgi, on two different environments. I gave up with it, and only use mod_perl now. It might not be as good, but it works. [16:32]
pharveyand somehow, I am unlucky enough that every request happens to trigger the bug
CDot, I must move to mod_perl eventually. I can't expect to hand over a corporate VM that must have locally compiled apache module :(
at least mod_perl seems to be actively maintained anyway.
[16:32]
CDotagreed. mod_perl is a "no brainer" - so simle, even corporate IT can handle it. [16:33]
gac410what about fcgid - isn't that supposed to be a replacement for fast_cgi [16:34]
MichaelDaumpharvey, there seems to be something else going wrong on your setup. as I said I am deploying fastcgified foswikis all the time and people are happy, always.
and I am not doing somethign special
[16:34]
pharveyMichaelDaum, I am not doing anything special either
I just did a very basic Ubuntu 9.10 setup, defaults everywhere
default ApacheConfigGenerator
exactly what your average Foswiki users would do, I think
and it works, but with the damn idle timeout bug
2.4.6 is 2.5 years old, with urgent bugfixes not properly released yet
which does not inspire confidence
I am not the only one with this problem. Pylons project also has to work around it
anyway, I feel better having vented a little ;-)
again, when I compile + install 2.4.7, it fixes the problem
[16:35]
MichaelDaumah okay I am *NOT* using FastCgiServer
I am using dynamic servers
FastCgiConfig -idle-timeout 180 -minProcesses 1 -maxClassProcesses 20 -maxProcesses 50 -startDelay 5
[16:38]
pharveyok [16:38]
MichaelDaumScriptAlias /bin /home/www-data/foswiki/trunk/core/bin/foswiki.fcgi
try this
[16:38]
pharveyFastCgiConfig cannot be used inside <VirtualHost> can it? [16:39]
MichaelDaumnot sure
the scriptalias goes into the virtual host though
minProcesses 1 is only for development!
[16:39]
pharveyI'm trying to work with corporate conf strategy, which tries to keep every domain self-contained in vhosts wherever that makes sense [16:41]
MichaelDaumme 2
I've got different ports for different configs
each a virtual host
some are fastcgi, others plain cgi
some are trunk, some stable foswiki
[16:41]
pharveyFastCgiConfig is a server-wide config [16:42]
MichaelDaumthats probably because it has to be optimized according to the server's resources. so it does not make sense to have specials per virtual host [16:43]
pharveythis is true.
MichaelDaum, I will link this irc chat in the Faq18
[16:43]
MichaelDaumfine :) [16:43]
pharveyI will try it later, I will forget this otherwise :) [16:44]
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[16:50]
pharveyCDot: played with jqgrid? Might be fun enhancement to JQTablePlugin. jqgrid adds a tableToGrid method [16:52]
CDotpharvey: nope. I like the sound of that, tho. It's always been a dream to have something that does spreadsheety kinds of things.
BTW I was looking back in my notes; the platforms that had problems were both older RHEL
[16:54]
pharveyCDot, fastcgi problems? [16:59]
CDoty [16:59]
pharveywell, it's just typical that I always manage to find a way of installing or using software that makes it break
g'night
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foswiki_irc4hello [18:58]
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foswiki_irc4can anyone tell me where I can find the excel2table plugin for foswiki
i am trying to find it and install it to a strawberry perl install of foswiki
[18:59]
anyone here? [19:05]
ArthurClemensExtensions.ExcelImportExportPlugin perhaps?
foswiki_irc4: http://foswiki.org/Extensions/ExcelImportExportPlugin
[19:12]
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[19:20]
foswiki_irc4i found that one and installed it to the foswiki dir. it doesn't seem to work.
it is enabled on the configure page.
i manually installed that one because I couldn't find the excel2table one
tahnk you for replying
[19:25]
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foswiki_irc4anyone here? [19:56]
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ArthurClemensfoswiki_irc4: 38 users [20:04]
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donbarry__foswiki_irc4: might I suggest that rather than saying "it doesn't seem to work", you give a synopsis of how you tested it, what the results were, what messages appeared in the apache *and* foswiki error logs, etc? Otherwise you cannot expect one to reasonably help you. Make it easy for others to help, and they will. Make it difficult, and they cannot find an entry point. [20:34]
foswiki_irc4point taken. thank you. I am new to this wiki stuff and will try to get this infomation for you. [20:39]
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[20:50]
foswiki_irc4where are the foswiki error logs? [20:50]
gac410usually errors end up in your apache error log. Some are also written to data/error.log [20:52]
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