#foswiki 2010-12-10,Fri

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WhoWhatWhen
gac410Or ... if Store is asked to attach a file that is itself in store? [00:16]
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SvenDowideitgac410, gibber splat [02:41]
pharveywow, FreezeRevNumbers got a lot of traffic :0 [02:45]
SvenDowideitits too long to read
looks like my next working day is tomorrow
hope to see a jqgid :p
[02:55]
gac410Hi Sven - Sorry - had speaker muted.
Skip to near the end of FreezingRevNumbers - I think I managed to summarize out some of the teeth gnashing and angst into a list of requirements.
[03:01]
pharveygac410, it's a neat summary. Perhaps you should put it at the top [03:02]
gac410But auto-attach is a real quagmire :-((
thx pharvey. I'll do that.
[03:03]
pharveydo we have to support a disabled-by-default feature? ;-)
pharvey only half joking
[03:04]
SvenDowideitgac410, i think we've essentially agreed to ditch autoattach as more trouble than utility [03:07]
gac410So UpdateAttachmentsPugin should actually attach files from some staging structure instead of trying to insert attachments into Meta found new in store. [03:09]
SvenDowideitand i also recon that the suggestion that the update attachment plugin doesn't need to be in core is clever too
nope
it should work as is
as that is the existing usecase
[03:09]
gac410But the we still have the problems that Meta is modified without telling the attach listeners, so listeners will become stale. [03:10]
SvenDowideitusers with filesystem access seem to find it extremely convenient to copy the 100's of files to the right place, then click 'make them valid'
i don't grok why not call the attache listener
as that happens after the meta is saved
the listener is only there to say XXXX has happened
not to facilitate the process of XXXXing
[03:10]
gac410So the UpdateAttachmentsPlugin should call the listener directly. [03:11]
SvenDowideityup [03:11]
gac410I didn't want to break the API. That is violating things. [03:11]
SvenDowideitimo there is insufficient difference between listener and logger
you are pointing out a flaw in the current implementation
[03:11]
gac410So we need to declare the Listener API as public [03:12]
SvenDowideitnot something that should prevent you :) [03:12]
pharveyLavr, I didn't realise you were so frustrated with the project. It would be a massive loss if you left. As you know, the code (doc updates) of mine that you have reverted, has been for very good reason, and I have understood (after some reflection) and agreed with. [03:12]
SvenDowideitor, to hook up the store part to grok what is going ont
gac410, i wouldn't go that far
i think its work implementing it so it works
and then we can improve the implementation
i don't have time yet, but i want to take a serious look at combining the listeners and loggers
and to deprecate the array of unknown values API that the loggers currently have
[03:12]
gac410So UpdateAttachmentsPlugin should Insert new into meta, remove missing from meta, and call the insert/remove listeners as appropriate. [03:14]
SvenDowideitfor now, y
then we can see how best to push the functinality
it might make sense to re-jig the ole autoattach functinoality
so that it has to be called intentionally ie '$meta->validateandFixMeta()'
and that then does all the work
and then the plugin becomes a oneliner
[03:14]
gac410I like that better. I don't like having the plugin cross the API boundary. That seems to come back and bite us. [03:16]
SvenDowideityup
i do like the idea that our new replacement for Meta is self healing - or at least able to tell the admin/user that there is an issue, and allow them to click 'yes, please fix'
that might help wrt the FreezeRevNumbers too
as atm, its not as true as some would have you beleive
take a topic at rev 12, delete the ,v file
what rev do you have?
in some code paths, its rev 1, in others its rev12
and validateAndFix can resolve that
SvenDowideit dissappears :(
[03:16]
gac410So validateAndFixMeta returns (missingAttachments, newAttachments, updatedAttachments, revErrors, ... and a 2nd call fixes them? [03:19]
SvenDowideitor, validate returns a meta, that you can then save
or diff, or :)
[03:19]
gac410or validateMeta returns the "problems" and fixMeta can be told which to fix. [03:19]
pharveyyeah, make them separate. [03:19]
SvenDowideitdepends on the impl
you might find they both have almost identical code paths, in which case..
detail - stop solutioneering >:P
[03:20]
gac410Let me write this up in the DeprecateAuto... topic Need cross-timezone, Meta is CDot's baby. [03:21]
pharveygetValidatedMeta [03:21]
SvenDowideitpoor cdot, blamed for old code [03:21]
gac410No blame - he refactored it all for 1.1, I am stepping through a mine-field and don't really understand it all. [03:22]
I still have a issue with anything outside of Store calling a deep Store Listener. So I think some of the fix is in Store.
I think the autoAttach code in VC::Store.pm becomes a separate Store::validateAttachments function that handles the listeners.
[03:29]
wbnivif you're even thinking of getting rid of AutoAttachPubFiles, i sure hope there's going to be a replacement upload that doesn't suck, and a script/REST that can update a topic's "META" data from the files on the dir
disk*
[03:33]
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SvenDowideiter wbniv
i wronte that many years ago
[03:53]
wbniva replacement upload that doesn't such?
suck?
no, the topic sync plugin
[03:53]
SvenDowideitUpdateAttachmentsPlugin
it was vital for things like wikigardens, where the slowdown of the core feature was crazy
and micha has done upload that doesn't suck
also webDAV is very very nice for bulk uploads
[03:53]
wbnivis the new upload plugin posted? i could have missed it, been so busy lately [03:55]
SvenDowideiti think so
something to do with topic interaction someother german non-obvious name for something
[03:56]
wbnivi'll look, upgrading my current project with it would be a nice bonus
Foswiki:Extensions/TopicInteractionPlugin
[03:57]
foswikibothttp://foswiki.org/Extensions/TopicInteractionPlugin [03:57]
SvenDowideitpharvey, how's the jqgrid happening? [03:57]
wbnivnope, not yet...
but i'm sure it would be before deprecating ...
[03:59]
SvenDowideitwhy?
the current code has nothign to do with uploading
its entire function is a non-save version of what UpadteAttachmentsPlugin does
aka - are you bikeshedding?
[04:00]
wbnivum
i'm confused
i don't know
[04:02]
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GithubBotfoswiki: master DanDascalescu * 3b5c3ac (1 files in 1 dirs): Item9986: correct typo in GaugePlugin.txt: libdg -> libgd ... - http://bit.ly/fFo0XM [04:02]
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wbnivi'm saying that i have had to scp files into pub because attach didn't work
files too large, i assumed
[04:03]
SvenDowideitthe core func _only_ does a diropen pub/web/topic foreach (file in there, make sure there's a meta) for ever created meta [04:03]
wbnivand i'm saying that if i can't scp -r some files, i'd sure like to (eg) zip them all together and upload a single file for a topic, and not dozens or hundreds [04:03]
SvenDowideitnever writing that
and _that_ is all we're deprecating
and _that_ is all we're _intending_ on deprecating
as the scp way is very important
[04:04]
wbnivi thought "AutoAttachPubFiles" was what was being proposed to deprecate [04:04]
SvenDowideitits not just there for people where upload doesn't work due to size, its also used otherwise [04:04]
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SvenDowideity
exactly
and it has no upload functionality in it
[04:04]
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wbnivok, but if i can't "AutoAttach", i figured i would need to upload [04:05]
SvenDowideitwhy?
that is the point of my plugin
[04:05]
wbnivyeah ok
that's fine
[04:06]
SvenDowideitit just does it in a scalable way
rahter than being a hack that works only for the small scale
[04:06]
wbnivjust wanted to make sure this vital bit that i use had a future way of doing it [04:06]
SvenDowideitSvenDowideit points to the plugin
you really need to not use the "AutoAttachPubFiles"
it _will_ kill our server
if you have a larger than trivial number of requests, or use queries
SvenDowideit is gone again
[04:07]
gac410wbniv - I gotta remember to stop muting the speaker.
UpdateAttachmentsPlugin syncs MetaData with pub directory, just like AutoAttachPubFiles. But on demand for a web or topic. Rather than making *every* get re-scan pub.
Only it's currently broken on 1.1
Need to fix it for 1.1, then redesign for 1.2 / 2.0
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pharveygac410, my PC never makes any noise. Ever. Unless it's overheating ;-) [04:34]
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[04:34]
gac410I don't have enough visible space to keep all windows showing. Without the beep, I have no idea that the irc has updated. [04:35]
pharveySvenDowideit: I'm now supporting 3 other Foswiki-app'ers other than myself... seems the days are disappearing quickly :/ I've been working up a slightly different version of JQGridPlugin.. rather than hard-code everything in perl, allows us to point at an arbitrary topic that will have a section 'grid' which will be used via AJAX to determine the actual view you get
my problem is that it's hard-coded to topic-at-a-time, and our forms are more normalised than that.. so need to concat/de-reference columns, etc
this was all going to be very easy when I did NestedFormsPlugin, but that's still waiting on EditorAPI...
[04:36]
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SvenDowideitpharvey, oh, ok, i was presuming you were going to start with a trivial, get a topic , render as a tree that allows edit and POST
so that we can make sure the protocol actually works in practice
the restplugin thing is very hardcoded to topic at a time too atm
so :/
mmm, back later
[05:26]
pharveyYes, I intend to do that, but somebody I'm working with needed multi-topic-jqgrid-view, that's working now. I'm configuring jqgrid to do exactly what you just said, as we speak. [05:27]
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MichaelDaumi like that: http://modxcms.com/learn/showcase/ [07:49]
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MTempestFascinating. Somewhere along the line Mozilla fixed Firefox so that links to file:// paths actually work. I had done all of the stuff that the docs said to do, but it didn't work for years. Now, it works. All I did in the meantime was upgrade FF a few times. [08:30]
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pharveyMichaelDaum: snazzy [09:21]
MichaelDaumpharvey, yay isnt it
btw do you know this book: http://www.hedden-information.com/accidental-taxonomist.htm ?
[09:22]
pharveyMichaelDaum, I haven't read it
My colleagues surround me with taxonomy discussion every day, however :)
seems modx ships with TinyMCE (I always find it interesting that CKEditor doesn't have more marketshare)
[09:24]
CDotpharvey: why? I can't see that CK offers that much different to TMCE [09:28]
pharveyCDot: the source code is easier to read ;-) [09:29]
CDotand TMCE is easy to integrate into jQuery.... [09:29]
pharvey(but you are right)
they seem to be a bigger team
[09:29]
MTempestBoth have bugs
MTempest has experienced disappearing cursor with CK
[09:29]
CDotae they bugs in the editors, or bugs in MIDAS?
it can be hard to differentiate
[09:30]
pharveybugs in the way they deal with midas bugs ;-)
yeah, I got disappearing cursor in CK too... in just a few minutes (was pasting in difficult content, though).
[09:31]
CDotat the end of the day, in a large client side app, the easy of integration, and the size of the editor, are both important, but the bug count is the #1 [09:31]
MTempestI'm not sure. From a user's perspective, it makes little difference. It was odd, the cursor was where it should be, and typing worked, but the flashing vertical bar was not visible. [09:31]
CDotMTempest: I have seen that many times in TMCE. And in the Dojo wysiwyg editor
I suspect it is MIDAS, and probably incurable
I do worry that TMCE is trying to be too clever sometimes
[09:32]
pharveyTMCE has some pretty interesting "detect-cursor-madness-and-recover" logic in there [09:32]
CDot"paste from Word" for example [09:33]
pharvey"recover" is sometimes just to reset it to the top of the edit document
it seems it's a little more 'formal' if you want to contribute to CKEditor - contributor license agreement, etc. spocke seems happy to accept pull requests from random github peeps
[09:33]
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[10:02]
CDotTMCE seems to be a BDFL-driven project, whereas CK seems a bit more commercially organised. But both are essentially BDFL-led. [10:13]
pharveyyep [10:15]
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MTempestDo we know anyone who can trawl through the OIN stuff and make sure there are no hidden gotchas ? [10:47]
pharveyOIN? [10:48]
CDotMTempest: I have pointed one of my lawyer friends at it, but whether they have time remains to be seen. [10:49]
MTempestpharvey: That organisation that Ingo mentioned on the foswiki-discuss list [10:49]
CDotI have read it all, and AFAICT there's nothing scary there. I have asked them for details of licensing for non-profits. [10:50]
MTempestCDot: great [10:50]
pharveythe concept seems reasonable
I hope Novell has the capacity to process new member registrations before the hand-over
[10:59]
MichaelDaumwtf is OIN
I really don't feel like wading thru that material
what problem do we have that OIN solves?
MichaelDaum reads onion all the time
[11:03]
pharveymagical immunity to softwate-patent threats, I guess [11:05]
MichaelDaumI like magic [11:05]
pharveyWTF, ubuntu changed their upstart format?!
apparently people love having configuration files change formats between incremental updates
pharvey re-codes mongodb upstart files >:(
[11:10]
CDotOIN owns a bunch of patents that they are prepared to license royalty free, in exchange for your agreement not to prosecute any of your patents against Linux
it remains to be seen what advantage would come to Foswiki if we had a license.
[11:14]
MTempestI suppose it depends what those 822 patents are [11:17]
MichaelDaum822 patents thats a lot. sounds like 12 herbs tea ... there must be one among them to heal you
as foswiki is not into prosecution we can only win ...
... and xmas is ante portas
[11:20]
CDotI looked through the 822; usual story, you read one patent and think "but that's bleeding obvious, how the hell did they get a patent for that?"
then you read another, and it's the same story
eventually you throw you hands up in disgust at the whole patent system :-(
and drag-and-drop (patented) your PDF (patented) into your trash can (patented)
[11:26]
MichaelDaumthey do have problems in u.s. wrt their patent system: they are reviewing it as part of the trial M$ against some canadian (?) company which sued M$ to have violated some xml parent ... now they think about how to get out of the mess by tuning the patent system so that M$ can still ship docx features in u.s. [11:30]
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[12:09]
pharveyThe Prime Minister John Howard in his infinite wisdom set up a free trade agreement with the US years ago which means that Australia respects US copyright & patent laws... so software patents are a problem here. [12:17]
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CDotand in Europe, unfortunately. [12:25]
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CDotsomehow the european courts seem to have a more pragmatic view of things, though, and are prone to throw silly lawsuits out.
unfortunately the UK isn't nearly so sensible, so people come here to start their stupid lawsuits
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[12:58]
z00dhello. Is there a commandline access to foswiki topics ? something like fw --web=Sytem --list-topics --limit=10 [12:59]
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OliverKrueger sets mode: +oo terceiro wbniv_
[12:59]
z00dor fw get System.WebPreferences and fw put ? [12:59]
OliverKruegerz00d: you can call the bin/view script on the cli. [13:00]
z00d(strange that FosWiki sounds liki FireWall ;-)
OliverKrueger: ok.
[13:00]
OliverKruegerz00d: if you do not want to get html, you may want to use the skin=plain parameter. [13:01]
z00dI'm looking for a way to avoid running a web browser to edit text pages. [13:01]
OliverKruegerdepending on your storage backend, you can edit the txt files manually and check them in afterwards.
but dont ask me for the correct cli call for rcs. :)
(you can look them up in bin/configure (expert mode))
[13:02]
z00dOliverKrueger: that's a way I was about to take. But then, I wondered: would there be any plugin for that ? and there I am ;-)
however: i love skin=plain
[13:03]
OliverKrueger:) [13:04]
z00dFoswiki::Engine::CLI what is it for ?
http://foswiki.org/Support/Question648 it's already been discussed.
[13:09]
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foswiki_irc3Hi @ all
exists a tutorial how to write a simple plugin?
[13:22]
OliverKruegerfoswiki_irc3: take a look at the EmptyPlugin.
and there is a howto in the Development web.
[13:28]
nutbar21foswiki_irc3: http://foswiki.org/Development/HowToMakeSimplePlugin [13:29]
OliverKruegerhttp://foswiki.org/Development/DevelopersBible is a good starting point [13:29]
foswiki_irc3great thank you [13:30]
OliverKruegeryw [13:31]
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[13:31]
Horst_pharvey: how can we solve Item100989
Item10089
[13:37]
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[13:51]
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nutbar21I'm getting "jQuery is not defined" thrown by foswikilib.js and foswikiForm.js whenever I try to use JQueryPlugin... how do I get the jquery js lib to load _before_ these .js files? [14:16]
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[14:22]
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CDotTasks:Item10089 [14:41]
foswikibothttp://foswiki.org/Tasks/Item10089 [14:41]
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MichaelDaumCDot, about holes in the store api. I just recently had the desire to do a batch of operations in one chunk (uploading multiple files) which kind of gets slowed down by tons of handlers being fired for each individual attachment...
maybe a wish list for xmas 2011
[14:52]
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CDotMichaelDaum: for sure. And anyone writing to the deep store listener API needs to be aware of that problem too
but as you know, fiddling with the (tm)wiki-inherited handlers is fraught with problems.
[14:58]
padraig_lennonTWikiDotNetForumAppAddOn - Are we allowed to migrate this? If not I might add do something similar as a contrib [14:58]
MichaelDaumwell it is definitely getting better [14:59]
CDotpadraig_lennon: it's GPL, isn't it?
of course, I'd probably prefer not to have the tdn name anywhere near foswiki, but that's just me.
[14:59]
padraig_lennonIts dual.. http://twiki.org/cgi-bin/view/Plugins.TWikiDotNetForumAppAddOn - See the Twiki.Net licence... [14:59]
CDotCDot loses interest [15:00]
OliverKruegerpadraig_lennon: Wasnt that the forum app originally written by AndreU? [15:01]
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padraig_lennonNot sure.. No reference to it on the AddOn page... Might be a good idea to migrate.. I can take the challenge.. I'll rename it though to DiscussionForumContrib [15:03]
gac410CDot, proposed some store changes after IRC discussion last night. Move the auto-attach function to VC::Store::validateAttachments, so it can be used both implicitly by the old autoattach, and explicitly for future. [15:04]
CDotgac410: where is it just now? [15:05]
gac410also Meta::getValidatedMeta - which would trigger the Store validation. [15:05]
CDotCDot thought he'd hidden it behind Foswiki::Store [15:05]
gac410Right now it's in-line in VC::Store::readTopic [15:05]
CDotok; well, a move within VC doesn't need much discussion [15:06]
gac410So I would refactor into VC::Store::validateAttachments, ... okay, good. [15:06]
CDotwhat is the spec of Meta::getValidatedMeta ? [15:06]
gac410Call on existing topicObject, returns new validated topicObject ... (I think.. still ruminating)
Sven suggested that would also address broken rev ids, etc. not just attachments
[15:07]
padraig_lennonOliverKrueger - btw.. Can you check if I'm up to date with membership? [15:07]
gac410OliverKrueger: me too - Can't remember asking if the paypal payment made it through to you. [15:08]
CDotgac410: what does "validated" mean? [15:09]
padraig_lennonok.. Thanks.. won't be able to attend the get-together.. I can pay next year for 2011 [15:09]
OliverKruegerI mailed the reminders only to those who are due.
The get-together is via irc/phone this year.
s/this year/Jan 6th, 2011/
[15:09]
gac410CDot - TBD. 1) Attachment meta is consistent with pub, 2) (maybe) Topic rev is consistent with rcs rev. Still somewhat squishy [15:10]
CDotCDot will comment when the jelly has firmed up a bit. [15:11]
gac410I was focusing just on attachments. Sven/pharvey suggested more generic capabilities. [15:11]
CDotCDot looks forward to hearing more specific proposals. For now, too liquid. [15:12]
gac410Very loose specs in Foswiki:Support/DeprecateAutoAttach. Not sure if it needs a separate proposal, [15:12]
foswikibothttp://foswiki.org/Support/DeprecateAutoAttach. [15:12]
gac410My implementation will be just attachments. But it's a place to do other validations. [15:13]
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gac410Do we have any way to compare the attachment list of two topicObjects to identify new/updated/removed attachments? [15:14]
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[15:18]
tsnfooIs there any way to disable the lazy image loading on the FindMoreExtensions page?
It is driving me insane. I try to click on something, and stuff moves around.
[15:28]
CDottsnfoo: no. But it has been commented before now that the images are a waste of time. So code them out of existance. [15:31]
gac410tsnfoo: +1 For 1.2 I've moved the "Update Extensions" button to a floating div at the top - so at least I don't have to play whack-a-mole with the button at the very end, while waiting for *every* image to load. [15:31]
tsnfoogac410: yeah dude. Sweet baby jesus is the whack-a-mole annoying.
gac410: would you be cool with removing them entirely, as CDot suggests? They don't really enrich the UX or communicate any additional meaning.
[15:32]
gac410I just need someone with more css foo than me to make the top div a bit more pretty. My layout skills leave much to be desired. ;-) could probably pull it into a 1.1.x rev. if it had some TLC. [15:33]
tsnfooIs 1.2 == trunk? I could take a swing at that, if you've committed it. [15:34]
gac410I'd rather have someone remove them who is more skilled with layout.
tsnfoo: yes - it's in the FindExtensions panel in trunk. Along with options to allow "simulate, no-deps, etc." in a twisty under the button.
[15:34]
tsnfooI was booting my svn install VM up anyways. I'll take a look at that. [15:35]
gac410Though the "reuse existing downloads" part is incomplete and either needs more code, or to be removed. [15:35]
tsnfoo1.2 isn't in any kind of freeze yet, is it? I wouldn't add/remove anything functional until we're sure someone will/will not finich the code. [15:36]
gac410tnsfoo, don't become ill when you look at it. I avoided overlaying the extension list by inserting a bunch of <br/> tags. [15:36]
tsnfoos/finich/finish [15:37]
gac410trunk has a lot of experimental code [15:37]
tsnfooLOL [15:37]
CDotgac410: since I added them, clearly "layout skills" are not required ;-) [15:37]
tsnfooLOL^2
gac410: your <br > reference almost made me snarf tea out my nose.
That either makes me a CSS geek, or just a geek.
[15:37]
gac410It was a good idea - but the jumping is a real problem. Maybe due to totally unpredictable image sizes.
tsnfoo: yeah at the time I knew it was a really bad idea, but it did work. ;-)
[15:38]
tsnfooI'll take working over nonexistent any day, man. [15:40]
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LynnwoodGreetings all. I've got a question about QuerySearch that I'm surprised hasn't occurred to me before: how to you search for a short string within a longer string? For example, say I've got a field and I want to search for records where that field has one of several values. With DBQUERY, I could use "FieldName ~ 'Value1, Value 2, Value 3'" or even "FieldName = '(Value 1|Value 2|Value 3)'" since DBQUERY accepted regexes. How can I do something
similar with QuerySearch?
[15:47]
MichaelDaumhi Lynnwood
query search has got regex match as well: FieldName =~ '...'
[15:48]
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Lynnwoodinteresting. that's not in doc (at least for version i'm looking at 1.0.9).
But thanks so much!
[15:49]
gac410I think that's a 1.1 feature ? [15:50]
Lynnwoodnow does "=~" designate a regex search or "is contained in" as with DBQUERY?
guess i should go look at 1.1.
thanks. i'll follow it up.
[15:51]
gac410regex [15:51]
Lynnwoodok, that good.
thanks gac410 !
[15:51]
MichaelDaum=~ is a regex search, like in perl [15:55]
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gac410Meta::getDifferences uses the RCS system to compare two revisions. :-(
Which means I can't diff a revision not yet written to store.
'To determine what would change if it were saved.
also getDifferences doesn't appear to test if the current object in the store. So I suspect it might not return all differences depending upon when called.
Load rev5, make some change, getDifferences w/ rev4 appears as though it would compare Store rev5 with Store rev4, and not report the local changes. But I have not tested.
[16:08]
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CDotgac410: Algorithm::Diff is installed by default, IIRC
Meta::getDifferences probably uses the store just because it's quicker to do that comparison in a native RCS command than to do it in pure perl
[16:16]
gac410So I think Meta::getDifferences needs to test if the current object is written to store, and if not, use Algorithm::Diff [16:17]
CDotmakes sense
not sure how you tell if the current object is dirty, though. That's an ongoing problem.
[16:17]
gac410I think Sven was also looking at needing a isModified() flag for Meta. Does Meta have any idea if it's dirty. :-D [16:18]
Lynnwoodanother search question: does anyone have a way to suppress any format output. i.e. if one only wants to display the total number of records found using $ntopics in footer? [16:18]
CDotformat="" ? [16:18]
LynnwoodActually, that does work. :-) In earlier versions, i know it ignored that and used default format.
very good.
[16:19]
tsnfooWow - I didn't think an empty format string worked either. I needed that the other day :-) [16:20]
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gac410Is Meta encapsulated well enough to assume that if any set* methods are called, we can mark a dirty flag
or can Meta public variables be modified without calling any methods.
[16:23]
CDotno. the only way to effectively encapsulate a perl object is to force it into a tie [16:25]
gac410I think Sven has a proposal for that. [16:25]
CDotunfortunately, Foswiki::Meta was a "structure" (i.e. a hash) for a *long* time before I turned it into an object
so its guts leaked out all over the road :-(
[16:25]
gac410For this particular use, I can assume that any changes are done by API calls and not hash references. But clearly that's not general enough. [16:26]
CDotnope [16:26]
gac410How many more worms are in this can anyway [16:27]
CDotgac410: how far down the can are you?
57 varieties
[16:27]
gac410:-) [16:28]
CDotthanks for reminding me about the "dirty" flag on meta objects. I have managed to blank that one out.
CDot curses perl under his breath, not for the first time
[16:28]
gac410Sven has Foswiki:Development/AddAReadOnlyMetaClass [16:29]
foswikibothttp://foswiki.org/Development/AddAReadOnlyMetaClass [16:29]
CDotfraid I think that's a bit naive
since a read-only meta will be treated as write-all-you-like by plugins
you'd have to find a way to fundamentally break it, so it couldn't be accidentally written to
[16:30]
gac410Hm. Implement an internal md5 of the loaded data. isModified validates the checksum. [16:31]
CDotyou could do that, yes. Expensive.
what about Foswiki::Meta::find?
it returns a ref to a field structure
which is "writable"
theonly way to detect writes would be to map it to a tie
=> expensive and complex
=> defeats the object
you may have realised I have given this some thought before now. But don't let my negativity discharge you.
[16:31]
gac410md5 of loaded object "on demand" Meta::detectChanges / Meta::isModified to avoid general overhead
Or just implement the Diff of the memory object to the stored version. :-(
[16:34]
CDotah, you arrived at my conclusion.....
TBH I walked away from this area, having too much on my plate at the time
but you are right, it needs to be solved.
[16:35]
gac410Is hoop-jumping to detect changes via md5 less/more expensive to just doing the diff. The diff requires a 2nd object, possibly a store access. [16:36]
CDotdepends how often you do a diff
if'n it's every access.....
[16:36]
gac410no. In this use anyway, only if the validateMeta was called to sync up attachments with Meta.
So probably just doing the diff is fine.
But we are deferring the inevitable I suspect.
[16:42]
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[17:01]
gac410gac410 wonders how often modifications of Meta outside of the API really happens. [17:07]
BabarNEVER! DAS IST VERBOTEN! :) [17:08]
gac410if a Meta::isModified() were implemented. also add DEBUG only code to warn if it sees a topic object written that wasn't dirty. ... for investigation. [17:10]
CDotgac410: I suspect that modifications outside of the API are the norm, not the exception
especially given that the API doesn not provide accessors for most of the content of a Meta.
I still think that replacing the hash with a tie (or rather, tree of ties) is the only way to interecpt changes.
and md5 check would work like an ASSERT. it would tell you something is wrong, but not *where* it went wrong.
[17:11]
gac410gac410 recognizes that ties and trees of ties are a bit (read WAY) over his head atm. [17:14]
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awrywho's up for some quick LdapContrib help?
any takers?
[18:53]
MichaelDaumawry, how can we help [18:53]
awryfirst time setting up LdapContrib
i think i might just be missing something ...
i had one local foswiki user set up
and i can log in as that user using the corresponding ldap credentials
but none of the other accounts that exist in ldap
can access the wiki
do i have to create separate foswiki accounts somewhere for them?
and how do i sync the two?
auth seems to work for the one account that exists in both places...
[18:54]
MichaelDaumokay
let's get into it.
first, what's the setting of the variable LoginManager in your foswiki configuration?
[18:57]
awryTemplateLogin
(that is Foswiki::LoginManager::TemplateLogin
[18:59]
MichaelDaumgood. now, did you add any ldap config to your apache server?
(assuming you do use apache)
[19:00]
awryusing apache, yes ...
did not alter config for this vhost
but do have authz_ldap and mod_ldap enabled
and played around w/ them on a separate vhost
[19:01]
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awryi found the docs a bit confusing on how those pieces relate [19:02]
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awry(apache2.2/ubuntu-10.04/fcgid) [19:03]
MichaelDaummake sure that you _either_ authenticat to foswiki using apache+mod_ldap and then use the LdapApacheLogin manager _or_ disable authentication for this foswiki and then be fine doing TemplateLogin ... that is: don't mix them
did you get that point?
[19:03]
awrytrying to wrap my head around tha [19:04]
MichaelDaumlet me explain a bit [19:04]
awryso, TemplateLogin == no ldap [19:04]
MichaelDaumTemplateLogin = html form to log in ... no matter what happens inside foswiki later on [19:04]
awryok, good, i want to keep that [19:04]
MichaelDaumin general there are two layers where you can authenticate: (a) on protocol level using apache basic auth or (b) on application level using foswiki's html form to login/logout
both have different pros and cons
[19:05]
awryok, and both work w/ ldap? [19:06]
MichaelDaumyes [19:06]
awryok, i may not be fully informed of pros and cons, but i think i want to continue using the html form [19:06]
MichaelDaumwhen using (a), LdapContrib inside foswiki isn't involved authenticating you [19:06]
awrymakes sense
it's passed off to apache and mod_ldap then for (a)
[19:06]
MichaelDaumwhen using (b), apache shouldn't try to authenticate the user _as well_ ... that's the first common error [19:07]
awryok, not having that problem
when logging in, goes straight to the html form
[19:07]
MichaelDaumgood. then we can proceed to find out what's going on
can I assume that you are well aware how your ldap directory is structured?
[19:07]
awryyes [19:08]
MichaelDaumis it an open ldap or an active directory? [19:08]
awryopenldap [19:08]
MichaelDaumgood choice [19:08]
awrymy users are in ou=people groups in ou=groups
groups are groupOfNames
pretty std setup
[19:08]
MichaelDaumare you using posixAccount or inetOrgPerson or both?
for user records
[19:09]
awrymainly inetOrgPerson, some also have posixAccount [19:10]
MichaelDaumi.c.
so you say you can login but a second user can't
[19:10]
awry(so far, at least, ldap is fairly new too)
right
so
i set up foswiki first
and configured my own account locally
and after setting up the ldap bits
[19:10]
MichaelDaumso your _local_ foswiki account does fine, but an ldap account is not able to log in, right? [19:11]
awryit now correctly lets me login with the uid from my inetOrgPerson object and the ldap password
and maps to my existing local WikiName
but none of the other users who exist in ldap
[19:11]
MichaelDaumbtw which version of LdapContrib are you using? [19:12]
awry(but not separately in foswiki)
can log in
4.21
[19:12]
AndrewJones_AndrewJones_ wonders if I can add myself to AUTHORS [19:12]
MichaelDaumokay, awry. after finishing up the ldap config in foswiki, did you refresh the ldap cache so that all records are cached in foswiki? [19:13]
awryMichaelDaum: what is supposed to happen internally, when someone logs in using ldap credentials, but does not yet have a WikiName/local foswiki acct?
yes
and i have debug enabled for LdapContrib, and can see the records coming into the cache
[19:13]
MichaelDaumhow many users are these? [19:14]
awryabout a dozen so far [19:14]
MichaelDaumnow go to Sandbox and create a LdapTest topic. then add %USERINFO{"some-uid"}% and %LDAPUSERS{hidenunknown="off"}%
^hidenunknown^hideunknown
this will show you the information foswiki has cached reading your ldap directory
[19:15]
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[19:16]
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foswikibothttp://foswiki.org/Development.InheritWikiLinksTopics [19:16]
awryhmm, got an access denied message ... sorting that out, one sec ... [19:17]
MichaelDaumyou can always bypass this problem going to Main.AdminUser and do a sudo login using your =configure= passwd to gain admin rights [19:18]
awryit was a simple thing (forgot to update foswiki to use https as default url)
so the USERINFO macro expanded
but
%LDAPUSERS{hideunknown="off"}%
didn't
[19:19]
MichaelDauminstall LdapNgPlugin to get that into your wiki [19:20]
awryah, ok
one sec
[19:20]
Babarlol. GithubBot makes foswikibot talk :) [19:20]
MichaelDaumBabar, ... which is cool [19:21]
Babaryeah. Next setp, make foswikibot commit stuff :) [19:22]
awryah, oh MichaelDaum ... that gives me a list of users, all right
all as unlinked wikiwords
[19:23]
MichaelDaumas soon as they login for the first time NewUserPlugin kicks in, creates a profile for them and the links will show up
in that list
so everything is set up just fine except credentials
common errors are: (1) umlaute or other non-common chars in your passwd (2) case sensitive uids ... typed in the wrong way
[19:24]
awryis it possible i don't have NewUserPlugin installed or configured properly? [19:26]
MichaelDaumthere's not much to configure here, despite customizing the template for profile pages to your needs.
awry, can you check there ldap record you are trying to login to foswiki with has got a password without special chars, like umlaute or other utf8 noise?
[19:26]
awryyeah, it's 'asdfasdf' [19:28]
MichaelDaumthanks will try that one next time ;) [19:28]
awry;) [19:28]
MichaelDaumkay, now let's check (2) [19:28]
awrynope
all lowercase
[19:28]
MichaelDaumnow try all uppercase [19:28]
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awryah, wait ... here we go
i think the problem
was that my test user was uid 'guest'
when i changed it to 'foobar' and then refreshed the ldap cache
it was alboe to log in
[19:29]
MichaelDaum... which is in the default Exclude list ... as that's a standard foswiki user [19:30]
awryyup
shoot!
haha
always something stupid and easy
thanks for all your help!!!
[19:30]
MichaelDaumyw :)
MichaelDaum makes a note guest/asdfasdf
[19:30]
awrylol
too bad you don't have a url
;)
[19:31]
MichaelDaumhow do you know [19:32]
awrylol
awry runs off to change passwords
[19:32]
MichaelDaumhave fun with foswiki. make it a nice twitter or some other kind of testimonial on your blog or so ... [19:34]
awryMichaelDaum: another issue just cropped up
my new user just logged in with his ldap creds
and the NewUserPlugin
took him to a form
where he got to choose a new WikiName, change password, etc ...
and seems to have added him as a local user
(and on the LdapTest topic, his ldap WikiName is still there and not a link)
[19:36]
MichaelDaumthere seems to be an access rights problem in your Main web. as well as an apache config problem where the 403 error page is redirecting to System.UserRegistration. remove the latter.
you don't need require valid-user or so in apache. make sure that this is gone as well
[19:38]
awryno apache valid-user lines
where is the 403 redirect?
[19:39]
MichaelDaumcheck out for something like ErrorDocument 401 /foswiki/System/UserRegistration
sorry not 403, 401 is it
[19:41]
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awryMichaelDaum: appears to have been a rogue .htaccess file
i am seeing that when a new user logs in, their WikiName page is not being created
is that normal?
or a sign that something is still not right?
[19:51]
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[19:51]
awryah, i don't have NewUserPlugin at all
there's the problem!
[19:56]
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[23:29]
awrycan anyone help me figure out why NewUserPlugin isn't working in my install? [23:34]
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awryi'm using ContribLdap and LdapNg
i can log in using my ldap creds as a new (to foswiki) user
[23:34]
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awrybut NewUserPlugin doesn't seem to fire?
extension is installed and plugin enabled
nothing happens
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