#foswiki 2012-03-16,Fri

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WhoWhatWhen
pharveydoes NatEdit now kill trunk? Junk after </html> assert failure [00:05]
SvenDowideitpass - i know nothing aboot it :) [00:06]
BabarCDot did that :p [00:10]
SvenDowideitoh gads, so SlideShowPlugin was updated in 2010 and not pushed to release
argh!
[00:10]
julian_workdo u work on foswiki full time SvenDowideit ? [00:10]
SvenDowideitjulian_work, mmm, ish [00:11]
pharveySvenDowideit: IIRC it makes some slides that were made to look good on the old Slideshow, look funky with the new one (%BR% spacing, or something) [00:11]
SvenDowideiti'm a freelance ((fos)wiki) consultant
but most of my time is looking after kids now
[00:11]
julian_workrgr [00:11]
pharveyFrom 8/requests per second up to 35/sec with the new PageCaching enabled (using postgres) [00:12]
SvenDowideitpharvey, there's no task, and no proof, so i say baloney
pharvey, toasty!
postgres on the wiki render server i hope?
[00:12]
pharveypharvey wrote http://foswiki.org/Support/BestPracticeTip30 as he tested it
postgres on my quad core dev server (sadly much gruntier than the actual prod server :})
yes
[00:12]
SvenDowideitbet i can make it much faster without postgres
if i had a testing resource :(
[00:13]
pharveyI don't care what DB, it's just what I use :P
PostGIS r0x
[00:13]
SvenDowideitzero db i mean [00:14]
pharveyoh, it seems to have one
pharvey tries it
[00:14]
SvenDowideitSvenDowideit wonders why you see such a miniscule speedup
cached topics should be instant.
actually, what i desperaly think we need, is a mod_authz_cookie that then allows us to access and test for user&auth in apache
cos then we can make the view portion unscripted
[00:14]
pharveynope, there's a /tmp directory which made me think that it could be a sign of a file-based solution, but that's for 'large binary objects'. [00:15]
SvenDowideitusing -f
na
[00:15]
pharveyFWIW the old cache was only slightly faster than this anyway [00:16]
SvenDowideitwe're kinda talking different things [00:16]
GithubBot[foswiki] foswiki pushed 1 new commit to Release01x01: http://git.io/rtYHGg
[foswiki/Release01x01] Item9526: Uncommitted translations in the last 4 hours - WikiTranslationGnome
[00:16]
***GithubBot has left [00:16]
SvenDowideitthe DB is for tracking dependencies isn't it? [00:16]
pharveyalso for holding the objects themselves [00:16]
SvenDowideitthe actual cached html etc is on disk? [00:16]
FoswikiBothttp://foswiki.org/Tasks/Item9526 [ Item9526: Translation work (needed for Pootle auto-checkin - please don´t close) ] [00:16]
pharveyEr
let me see.
[00:16]
SvenDowideitif the objects are in the db, then you have an instant slowdown there [00:17]
pharveyah, the html is held in tmp/cache [00:17]
SvenDowideitgood
thats how i groked the idea :)
[00:17]
pharveythat explains a confusing discussion I had with micha [00:17]
SvenDowideitthen push the apache to detect 'is guest' and rewrite the request to the cached html
_if_ -f
as in if the file exists
[00:17]
pharveyapache needs to calculate the dependencies and hash them to be able to do the -f [00:18]
SvenDowideitthen make a cronjob or something to delete the file when the deps are fired
oh, he uses a hash for file id?
that is :(
nm, i'll poke the cache code next month
[00:18]
pharveywell, it's URL parameters + cuid + ... ? [00:19]
SvenDowideitcos i need it to use zero code for guest use
oh, he's not using directories for partitioning?
that won't help on the large scale
excellent - there's a few more quick wins we can have for 1.2.0 :)
cos we all want much more than 35/s
Rich_Morin, i'm merging your slide show doc changes
and argh!
trunk's plugin text is different
and it painful as all hell for me, a thrid party to merge the 3
[00:19]
pharveytalk to ArthurC about it; I'm pretty sure I'm right about why he balked at merging the rewrite [00:21]
SvenDowideitpharvey, i'd love to - but the timing is poor :)
and sept2010 til now unreleased
with no feedback from the 'it broke my stuff' people is crap
as this is do-ocracy, it'll be in 1.2.0 unless someone does actually raise a task for the breakage
[00:21]
pharveytrue
but I have no slideshows to care about
[00:23]
SvenDowideit:) [00:23]
pharveyso you need to poke Lavr, although I seem to recall that even he said the improvements were worth it [00:23]
SvenDowideitoh, they are :) [00:23]
pharveyworth the small layout problems [00:23]
SvenDowideitand i am poking Lavr
but he's off doing stuff darn him :)
[00:23]
........ (idle for 37mn)
GithubBot[foswiki] foswiki pushed 2 new commits to Release01x01: http://git.io/JYoAEA
[foswiki/Release01x01] Item11540: RichMorin's Documentation updates for SlideShowPlugin - SvenDowideit
[foswiki/Release01x01] Item11649: release 1.1 SlideShowPlugin un-necessarily breaks jquery widgets (TABPANES for eg are just blank) - SvenDowideit
[01:01]
***GithubBot has left [01:01]
FoswikiBothttp://foswiki.org/Tasks/Item11540 [ Item11540: Documentation updates for SlideShowPlugin ]
http://foswiki.org/Tasks/Item11649 [ Item11649: release 1.1 SlideShowPlugin un-necessarily breaks jquery widgets ]
[01:01]
.... (idle for 15mn)
GithubBot[foswiki] foswiki pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/qm-prg
[foswiki/master] Item11540: RichMorin's Documentation updates for SlideShowPlugin - SvenDowideit
[01:16]
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.... (idle for 19mn)
pharveySvenDowideit: I think Item11651 is secretly a duplicate of Item10930 [01:35]
FoswikiBothttp://foswiki.org/Tasks/Item11651 [ Item11651: 'save and continue' loses wiki text edit setting. ] http://foswiki.org/Tasks/Item10930 [ Item10930: When editing using the 'wiki text' editor no WYSIWYG button is shown ] [01:35]
SvenDowideitnot quite? [01:36]
pharveyI've been meaning to kill both birds with the same hammer [01:36]
SvenDowideitthe bug i started writing is that save&continue from wiki text mode of wysiwyg loses its marbles [01:36]
pharveyas in it goes back to WYSIWYG? [01:36]
SvenDowideitoh 'secretly' - yes [01:36]
pharveyOk, thanks [01:36]
SvenDowideitsame root cause, different user story [01:37]
pharveyI really want to remember the setting in a cookie [01:38]
SvenDowideiter, can't?
as it only applies to that _one_ edit of that one topic
if i open 3 tabs editing the same topic
i should not get the other one in the same mode as the other due to a secret cookie
[01:38]
pharveywell, there's several issues. One, we should never lose the WYSIWYG button. Two, save & continue should come back with the same editor you saved with. Three, it sucks if you prefer raw and have to keep finding the raw edit button - it should just remember. [01:39]
SvenDowideitor less naf - if i hit edit wiki text and save, i should not get wikitext next time
i don't agree with the last
[01:39]
pharveyedit should always wysiwyg? [01:40]
SvenDowideitunless you can work out a real heuristic - in that if i hit raw edit 80% of the time, is still don't want it to default to it
basically - how exactly does the code know waht the user wants (magically)
[01:40]
pharveyIt just remembers your last-used-editor. [01:41]
SvenDowideitna, that sux
cos i drop to wikitext only to fix something
[01:41]
pharveyReally? So we have to train them to force WYSIWYG enabled or disabled in their user topic? [01:42]
SvenDowideitnext time i want to be back to normal sanity [01:42]
pharveyOk. [01:42]
SvenDowideitit should be unusual to need raw edit
and its getting less necessary all the time
[01:42]
pharveythere's also the philosophical discussion of the semantics of NOWYSIWYG - should that totally nuke the WYSIWYG as it always has done, or merely indicate that the default editor is the raw one (keeping the wysiwyg button there if you want it) [01:42]
SvenDowideiti use NOWYSIWYG only to protect topics that wysiwyg tends to nuke [01:43]
pharveyas I've noticed some IRC users are vehemently opposed to WYSIWYG
I think tmwiki made a default editor pref
I guess we should just do that
[01:43]
SvenDowideitthose irc users are old timers that are quite capable of adding a etting to their user topic
i do like the idea of making it easier to set NOWYSIWYG, both on a user topic and on a specific topic
but there's little need to make raw edit more prominent - the proportion of people writing non-prose is small enough, and they (necessarily) already know more so can be reasonably expected to know about NOWISIWYG too
i have no idea where natedit falls in this tho :/
wish save&continue would save my cursor location too
mmm, so browsers are adding resize thingys to textareas automagically
can we persist them?
[01:43]
....... (idle for 32mn)
pharveyyes
also: we can persist the cursor location
but for how many topics
tmce has a cursor pos get/setter
[02:22]
SvenDowideit_this_ one :)
as in, it only persists for save&continue
save/cancel would clear it?
[02:23]
pharveyit could be purely client-side if we use local storage [02:24]
SvenDowideitSvenDowideit mumbles about the dumb edit same topis in more than one tab :) [02:24]
pharveyer, cookie I guess. [02:24]
SvenDowideiti guess too :) [02:24]
pharveybiggest complaint I get from natedit users is the screen real estate
most are widescreen users, and use TMCE's fullscreen all the time to compensate
which brings us to the next point: fullscreen needs work :P
pharvey wanders off
[02:24]
SvenDowideiti definitly want a foswiki what makes the content the main view
cos atm, there's tousands of clutter
[02:25]
ok gac410 and pharvey i have something for you to try out.
under the icon'd Create Task in the sidebar in the Tasks web
I've added a 'New Task' that only shows for us three
instead of using hand crafted html form, it uses a simplified edit template (with the TEXT off atm, but that will change)
I'm going to fix a few tiny things for 1.1.5 to improve it
but..
[02:33]
gac410NICE [02:35]
SvenDowideitthis is really all just ancient but ondoccoed and un-explored functionality
and is part of the 1.2.0 simplify dataform doc and creation
maddening
i've been cooking in stuff to make this possible since 2003
but i've never sat down to show anyone how to pull it togther
and so it also is rough around all the edges
maybe i should talk to the community about micropayments for online training
as i'm only writing this stuff up because someone asked for a training course
mmm, shame its slow as a pig due to needing a server render due to strikeone
mmm
i'm getting strikeones constatntly
so i have something not quite right yet :/
mmm, i found the $pager bug in 1.1.4 that arthur told me about ages ago, so i'll have to fix that in the next days
[02:36]
AlexisHazellSvenDowideit: i keep thinking i should make more use of Flattr .... [03:04]
SvenDowideitflattr?
darnit, why do i always have so many browser windows open that i get 'out of reseources'
oh, ic
[03:04]
AlexisHazelli like the idea of having an account from which funds are drawn, and which is not PayPal. :-) [03:12]
SvenDowideitgiggle
i use paypal as a slush fund, so its a bit orthogonal
[03:13]
AlexisHazellHeh, "slush fund"? [03:13]
SvenDowideiti had to complain to kickstarter - there have been a few things i've wanted to support
but as they use amazon only, i just get cold prickelies and give up
so same issue really
y - small clients pay with paypal, often in usd
[03:13]
AlexisHazell:-/ [03:14]
SvenDowideitso i leave it there and use it for little things back [03:14]
AlexisHazellAh, i see.
On a different matter,
i want to write a plugin which would take a topic page, scan it for any acronyms, put <acronym> tags around those acronyms, and draw the text for the title attribute from a single topic page which contains a list of acronyms.
[03:14]
SvenDowideitok, i've added you to the list of people to see the 'New Task' link under the 'Create Task' link in the Tasks web side bar
oh gads - simple, but horrid :)
[03:16]
AlexisHazellHeh, horrid how?
(And, thanks for the add. :-) )
[03:17]
GithubBot[foswiki] foswiki pushed 1 new commit to Release01x01: http://git.io/qt7PkA
[foswiki/Release01x01] Item11655: CommentPlugin types table is missing some shipped types. - SvenDowideit
[03:17]
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SvenDowideituse the 'we hate it' common???handler to parse the topic text as its viewed [03:17]
FoswikiBothttp://foswiki.org/Tasks/Item11655 [ Item11655: CommentPlugin types table is missing some shipped types. ] [03:18]
SvenDowideitthat popup (thou it takes too long) is a generic Template that can be used for any popup dialog to create (or edit)
actually
there used to be an acronyms plugin
pharvey, thanks for git svn fetch --all
[03:18]
gac410Hm. could the renderWikiWordHandler be a way to process the link text for acronyms [03:20]
SvenDowideittakes a while of course
only if its a wikiword
if you want any random text to be acronym-able
then you have to resourt to being bruteish
[03:20]
pharveyAlexisHazell: FWIW SemanticLinksPlugin allows you to control how [[Property::Value]] links are rendered. For example, we've successfully replaced BibliographyPlugin's ITE{Author}% macro with a [[Cite::Author]] property [03:22]
gac410Ah - it processes Acronyms only if they are linking? Hm. I recall someone complaining that it was called for non-linking "potential" acronyms [03:22]
AlexisHazellgac410: Not sure what you mean? i see in the docs that acronyms get linkified if a topic with that name exists, but i don't want a topic-per-acronym, and i don't want people to have to visit said page to get the def'n. [03:22]
SvenDowideiter, thats not the same thing :)
if all you want is to change the existing plugin to put the defn into title=
then thats a really simple change
[03:22]
AlexisHazellSorry, my response was to gac410 earlier, my chat client hadn't scrolled!
SvenDowideit: Well, where will it be drawing the def'n from?
[03:23]
SvenDowideitwhereever you wants :) [03:24]
AlexisHazellWell then, a single topic page listing acronyms. :-) [03:24]
SvenDowideitwhat i mean, is if the current acronym plugin identifies target fragments correctly
then you should be able to modify it to get the info from a different place
and to render it differently
[03:24]
AlexisHazellWell, the BNF for it seemed to be what i wanted, so ....
Hm, okay.
[03:25]
pharveyAlexisHazell: you might also be interested in http://foswiki.org/Support/BestPracticeTip16 which is an AJAX solution to your problem, I think. [03:25]
gac410no AcronymPlugin in svn that I can find.
(Though foswiki calls them Abbreviations ... for whatever historical reason.
[03:25]
SvenDowideitSvenDowideit could be lost :) [03:26]
AlexisHazellpharvey: Almost, but not quite; i don't want users to have to use a macro, in the same way that they don't have to manually create links when they use WikiWords. [03:26]
pharveyoh, right. Of course :)
pharvey is updating it to not require EasyMacrosPlugin
[03:27]
AlexisHazell(Using a macro is something i could live with, but i guarantee my users couldn't.) [03:27]
gac410SvenDowideit: Are you thinking of ControlWikiWordPlugin ... which can prevent ACRONYM linking for other than the first occurence? [03:27]
pharveyAvoiding a SEARCH during the render cycle, for each acronym thing though, might be important. [03:27]
SvenDowideitgac410, na, but what i'm thinking of might be ancient [03:28]
pharveyalthough, if everything is in one topic, why not
never mind, I'm just rambling
trying to do more than 1 thing at a time
[03:28]
AlexisHazellpharvey: Heh, know the feeling!
So, i need to look in the code for the "linkify 'Abbreviations'" bits?
(Brb.)
[03:28]
gac410Take a look at ControlWikiWordPlugin. It has some code to find acronyms
It will insert a <nop> in front of all but the first occurrence of an Acronmy,. probably not much different to insert an <acronym> tag. (or a <span class=acronym>)
[03:30]
GithubBot[foswiki] foswiki pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/T1Amcg
[foswiki/master] Item11655: CommentPlugin types table is missing some shipped types. - SvenDowideit
[03:32]
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SvenDowideittrue, and if it were ammended using tmpl
you could skin how it does its think
[03:32]
AlexisHazellgac410, SvenDowideit: Okay, thanks. :-) [03:44]
SvenDowideitSvenDowideit wonders if we can make the edit button bar stuck to bottom like the save in configure
especially for super ginormous forms
and thus i make another edit template topic for taasks
[03:49]
..... (idle for 20mn)
mmm
gac410, when are you buildering rc2?
aka updating f.o again?
guess i need to do the $pager bug asap
[04:10]
gac410Do we have any release blockers? [04:11]
SvenDowideitlets see if there are any that are not me [04:11]
gac410actually what happened to all the tmce blockers - did cdot's merge from trunk resolve a lot? [04:11]
SvenDowideitpass
no, i think pharvey still needs to do some stuff
[04:12]
gac410Last I knew he said they could wait for post 1.1.5 - but that was before cdot merged I believe [04:12]
SvenDowideitok, so you have no concrete plan [04:14]
gac410looks like mostly could be skipped - ... I said on blog - build RC1 on March 20. But we could probably build this weekend [04:14]
pharveygac410: Item11312 is the super-mega-urgent-releaseblocker [04:14]
SvenDowideitoh, sorry - /me read failure [04:14]
FoswikiBothttp://foswiki.org/Tasks/Item11312 [ Item11312: TinyMCE Corrupting HTML Tables ] [04:14]
SvenDowideitpharvey, its not listed in http://foswiki.org/Tasks/ReleaseBlocker
so bleaugh :)
[04:15]
gac410Hm. 11312 is not urgent. [04:15]
pharveyWell, it wasn't urgent because it wasn't Release01x01 [04:15]
gac410Ah. So we need to review Sven's merge
er CDot's (sorry Sven)
[04:15]
SvenDowideit:p [04:16]
pharveyCDot's merge is fine, I think I know what he did
but this bug is a result of MTempest's good work on Item2174
[04:16]
FoswikiBothttp://foswiki.org/Tasks/Item2174 [ Item2174: WysiwygPlugin removes line breaks ] [04:16]
pharveyAnd I really don't want to revert that, to fix this
I'd rather fix both
I wont' get any FW time till sunday
pharvey still needs to do about 4 hours of gardening on saturday
silly rental properties and their huge gardens
[04:16]
SvenDowideitgads
glad we never rented a house
[04:17]
gac410Item11214 is also a TMCE 1.2 urgent - probably should be 1.1 now I guess. [04:18]
FoswikiBothttp://foswiki.org/Tasks/Item11214 [ Item11214: can't create link to image ] [04:18]
SvenDowideitI'd like http://foswiki.org/Tasks/Item10350 fixed for 1.1.5 too [04:18]
GithubBot[foswiki] foswiki pushed 1 new commit to Release01x01: http://git.io/bmE4vA
[foswiki/Release01x01] Item11656: add general pattern skin defaults to top of foswiki.org theme so dialogs don't look quite do odd. THIS NEEDS REVIEW BY ARTHUR.. - SvenDowideit
[04:18]
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SvenDowideitso i think i'll have to urgent it and then work on that [04:18]
FoswikiBothttp://foswiki.org/Tasks/Item11656 [ Item11656: pattern skin font definitions are too far into the html to work for JQDialogs ] [04:18]
gac410So set the target releases and urgency... please. [04:18]
SvenDowideitbut i need lunch :( [04:18]
GithubBot[foswiki] foswiki pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/G13DHg
[foswiki/master] Item11656: add general pattern skin defaults to top of foswiki.org theme so dialogs don't look quite do odd. THIS NEEDS REVIEW BY ARTHUR.. - SvenDowideit
[04:19]
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gac410and time for me to sleep - g'night all. I'll be back online in another 18-20 hours. Busy day tomorrow. [04:19]
SvenDowideitgoot night :) [04:19]
gac410Don't add too many blockers :D [04:20]
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SvenDowideitmmm, actually, i have too many already :/
need to make a 1.1.5 usbstick
[04:28]
....... (idle for 31mn)
ok, puzzled
i've an IF in TasksWebLeftBar that was showing my next create task popup to me, george pharvey and AlexisHazell
but now it doesn't
at least not to me
[04:59]
pharveySvenDowideit: worksforme [05:01]
SvenDowideitnotanymore i hope, i just removed you all
but argh!
[05:01]
pharveynope, trunk.foswiki.org still gives me the popup [05:01]
SvenDowideitwtf?
er, which
i mane the 'New Task'
not the icon'd 'CreateTask'
[05:01]
pharveyoh [05:02]
SvenDowideitthe newnewnew one shows the full edit template
minus TEXT
[05:02]
pharveyoh nifty, yeah I still get that [05:03]
SvenDowideitand thus requires no custom html form
ffs.
oh.
[05:03]
pharveyI usually use RENDERFOREDIT to avoid custom HTML forms [05:03]
SvenDowideitso $USERNAME might be broken in 1.1.5
and now its back on 1.1.5
wtf
[05:03]
pharveySvenDowideit: you should supplement Foswiki:Support/Faq56 [05:04]
FoswikiBothttp://foswiki.org/Support/Faq56 [ How can I more easily create topics that use System.DataForms - do I really need to write HTML code each time? ] [05:05]
SvenDowideitha.
I'll be supplementing System.DataForms thanks :p
[05:05]
pharveykewl [05:05]
SvenDowideitits mad how people are scared to fix the docs [05:06]
pharveyIt's mad how people don't doc at all
but in this case I didn't touch DataForms because it talks about non-core things
[05:06]
FoswikiBothttp://trunk.foswiki.org/System/PerlDoc?module=Foswiki::Form [05:07]
SvenDowideitbleaugh. too many things to do :/
i'm going to be so glad when this tmwiki->foswiki conversion is done
harumpf. I _STILL_ don't see the IF $USERNAME then :(
its like something is cacheing
cept i know its not
[05:08]
pharveyAre you IF{"defined USERNAME AND $'USERNAME'='JimBob'" ? [05:11]
SvenDowideitno
just $USERNAME='JimBob'
wft is the $'USERNAME'? god,thats woeful!
[05:11]
pharveyer [05:11]
SvenDowideitand no, its not required. [05:12]
pharveyI didnt' say it was
now I'm doing 3 things at once, so, I should probably stop suggesting things and wasting your time :)
[05:12]
SvenDowideitgrin
you shoudl stop slowing yourself down, yes
_this_ 5 mins, its working
its an intermittent thing, so kinda scary
[05:13]
............ (idle for 55mn)
mmmm
i want different FW icons for f.o and its webs
and.... then i want a different icon for special topics
SvenDowideit decides to make something 'in his spare time'
[06:08]
pharveycould've sworn mongo errored if you tried to set a new index and it couldn't because-there-are-too-many [06:09]
SvenDowideityes, i coulda too
error - as in into the log file
[06:09]
pharveydon't we have a FAVICON setting? [06:10]
SvenDowideitwe d
o
but we / I didn't just make some
[06:10]
pharveyno I mean, ensure_index should throw an error [06:10]
SvenDowideitand now i might
i'm not sure of that - it'd be uncharateristically chatty
[06:10]
pharveysilent failures seem saddening
and conflicts with the sense of 'ensure'
but maybe I'm an alien
[06:13]
SvenDowideityes :(
like you find with too many topics, feedback /info does not webscale
i __love__ my new todolist
its so a 3 page WikiApp
except. i might have found a pager bug :/
and my day's over
[06:13]
...... (idle for 27mn)
HenroRitchieHi - I am struggling with a implementation of the %IF% macro - anybody that can help? [06:42]
pharveyHenroRitchie: sure [06:46]
GithubBot[foswiki] foswiki pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/J-hWSw
[foswiki/master] Item10994: Set mandatory indexes even w/many formfields - PaulHarvey
[06:47]
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FoswikiBothttp://foswiki.org/Tasks/Item10994 [ Item10994: MongoDBPlugin can run out of indexes before they're enabled on =_topic=, =_web= and friends ] [06:48]
HenroRitchiepharvey, thank you. I am running a %SEARCH% with a nested %IF% to display only certain results. Problem is every hit that it gets is a new line. If the result is the one I require it gets displayed, if not, it creates a new line without displaying the result - and that line breaks the table [06:54]
SvenDowideitcdot, http://foswiki.org/Tasks/WebLeftBar I added you to the IF that shows the 'TEST: New Task' link in the sidebar [07:05]
CDotI've been added to an IF? Zowie! [07:05]
SvenDowideitit uses a generic topic based edit template to give us a popup of what the forms system
click the link - tell me what you think of the popup (other than F**K its slow)
i also don't know why it gets a strikeone whine - it doesnt' on my setup
oh, an pharvey I added a slightly custom favicon to tasks web :)
[07:05]
CDotI saw it yesterday - very pretty [07:07]
SvenDowideitthis is new
today
[07:07]
CDotmy today != your tomorrow? [07:08]
SvenDowideitnot the 'Create task' , I've started work on a new on [07:08]
CDotoh [07:08]
SvenDowideitthat doesn't use hand coded html [07:08]
CDottemplate=Tasks.PopupEditItemTemplate ? [07:08]
SvenDowideitso will be what will go into the 1.2.0 dataforms docco and creation improvement feature
y, its only about 5 years old
5 hours
[07:08]
pharveyHenroRitchie: you can set separator="" and use an explicit $n token on the end of those IF lines which do produce output [07:09]
SvenDowideitffs, i'm glad its time to go [07:09]
CDotCDot sees it twice in the topic
once in createtask, once in a comment
[07:09]
SvenDowideityup
and once in the side bar
[07:09]
CDotOIC, call and dialog [07:09]
SvenDowideitSvenDowideit has to go
laters :)
[07:09]
CDotciao
CDot has to fix the natedit templates.
[07:10]
HenroRitchiepharvey - when I started reading you message I realized I was missing that! To be honest, its been too long since I´ve played in foswiki. But on the other hand - the latest release of fwiki is awesome :) all you guys did really good work [07:14]
pharveygreat to hear you like the progress. 1.1.5 should have lots of juicy fixes too :) [07:19]
HenroRitchieYes I am looking forward to that [07:25]
GithubBot[foswiki] foswiki pushed 2 new commits to master: http://git.io/QdW8kg
[foswiki/master] Item11551: stop dying on TOPICINFO-less Topic.txt - PaulHarvey
[foswiki/master] Item11551: We prefer fake numbers, not NaNs - PaulHarvey
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FoswikiBothttp://foswiki.org/Tasks/Item11551 [ Item11551: MongoDBPlugin still using the old loadedRev=0 semantics ] [07:31]
pharveySvenDowideit: so, your recent work on core with duplicate TOPICINFOs also fixes Item10762, hooray [07:32]
FoswikiBothttp://foswiki.org/Tasks/Item10762 [ Item10762: _authorWikiName in TOPICINFO causes problems ] [07:32]
CDotRather philosophical spam this morning: Subject: CONGRATULATIONS! YOU HAVE WORN! [07:37]
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ChanServ sets mode: +o OliverKrueger
OliverKrueger sets mode: +ooo CDot Colas terceiro
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GithubBot[foswiki] foswiki pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/xK33tQ
[foswiki/master] Item11648: remove spurious content from behind </html> tag; remove tag comments that duplicate ::Templates::TRACE function. Unit tests should now pass. - CrawfordCurrie
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GithubBot[foswiki] foswiki pushed 2 new commits to master: http://git.io/kEPj7w
[foswiki/master] Item11648: - MichaelDaum
[foswiki/master] Item11648: woops - MichaelDaum
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FlorianPCan anyone help me with this error? Can't locate setlib.cfg in @INC (@INC contains: .............. [11:16]
pharveyFlorianP: is this a new installation? What kind of environment (apache? linux? which one?) [11:24]
browsing the 'net at 2KiB/sec is quite... something
you can sure appreciate why tabs weren't necessary
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FlorianPpharvey: thx i solved it myself :-) [11:58]
***ChanServ sets mode: +o MichaelDaum [11:58]
MichaelDaumMichaelDaum wondering whether we should move the {Cache}{DBI} settings to {DBI} so that they can be used by other stuff in need of a DBI connection. [11:59]
CDotMichaelDaum: I'm seeing a %FORMBUTTON popping up.... should then be in a %IF? [12:03]
MichaelDaumFORMBUTTON? whatsdat
oh natedit
[12:03]
CDotdunno; it appeared after your last commit [12:03]
MichaelDaumimpled in NatEditPlugin to work around the braindead way the core does "change/add form"
as far as I remember
MichaelDaum rereading da code
needs at least some docu
better would be: move it into the core
[12:04]
CDotCDot is stunned; docco, from MichaelDaum? /me checks to make sure the sun is not exploding and the grass is still green ;-)
FORMBUTTON? in the core? yuck
[12:07]
MichaelDaumalso: NATFORMLIST is a workaround of the other braindead equivalent in the core, part of Foswiki::UI::Edit [12:08]
CDotCDot looked at the formplugin once [12:08]
FoswikiBothttp://trunk.foswiki.org/System/PerlDoc?module=Foswiki::UI::Edit [12:08]
MichaelDaumthats not formplugin [12:08]
CDotwell, if we can improve the core, fine. But remember plain text edit still has to work.... [12:09]
MichaelDaumMichaelDaum never ever used formplugin...not sure what it is for [12:09]
CDotok, I see natEdit implements FORMBUTTON.... isn't the name quite likely to clash with other plugins (such as FormsPlugin)? [12:10]
MichaelDaumthere are two potential cleanups wrt FORMBUTTON and FORMLIST. both involve reworking legacy in Foswiki::UI::Edit by making the "macros" in there proper macros [12:10]
CDotCDot doesn't know, is just observig
FORMLIST is a pretty generic name as well
[12:10]
MichaelDaumtrue. we are totally free to rename it to something else less generic. [12:10]
CDotsure, and we should grab the chance when we can [12:10]
MichaelDaumcool
did you get why I did this FROMBUTTON thing?
[12:10]
CDotdo you rmemeber what it was in UI::Edit you were working around?
no, not yet, still reading code
[12:11]
MichaelDaumso the current Foswiki::UI::Edit code limits the location where you put the "change/add form" button to some very specific place in the dom node [12:12]
CDotnasty [12:12]
MichaelDaumwhich basically makes it impossible to diverge a bit towards something more usable [12:12]
CDotFORMBUTTON is javascript-dependent, tho [12:12]
MichaelDaumis it? [12:12]
CDot$theFormat =~ s/\$script/submitEditForm('save', '$action');/g; [12:13]
MichaelDaumit even depends on JQueryPlugin to create the natedit module [12:13]
CDoty
if we can merge the functionality - maybe even have nnatedit override the system default impl of FORMBUTTON - I'm all for it
worst case, keep it as it is and just rename %FORMBUTTON to something less generic
[12:13]
MichaelDaumthe fallback on noscript should disable all of natedit [12:15]
CDotCDot can't see any major harm in that [12:15]
MichaelDaumany suggestion for a name? [12:16]
CDotNATEDITFORMBUTTON? [12:16]
GithubBot[foswiki] foswiki pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/YeLjmA
[foswiki/master] Item11648: eliminate spurious HTML comments by using %{ }% comments to hide newlines. Note that there's no real need to cover the \n, as %{}% cleans whitespace on either side of itself, but I did it just for clarity of purpose. - CrawfordCurrie
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FoswikiBothttp://foswiki.org/Tasks/Item11648 [ Item11648: Add NatEditPlugin to core Add NatEditPlugin to core Add NatEditPlugin to the core ] [12:16]
CDotNEFORMBUTTON? [12:16]
MichaelDaum%TMFKAFB (the macro formerly known as FORMBUTTON) [12:16]
CDotheh
NATFORMBUTTON I guess, for consitency with NATFORMLIST
[12:16]
MichaelDaumk
though NATFORMLIST is useful in more general
I'd rather like to see Foswiki::UI::Edit cruft being removed and repalced with these two guys being in core
how about DATAFORMBUTTON and DATAFORMLIST
[12:20]
FlorianPMichaelDaum: How should i name SolrSearchBaseTemplate if i want change something? [12:31]
pharveyedit on trunk.foswiki is slightly b0rked, I guess you guys are working on that atm
WTF. "ERROR: Hi csirac2, it's GitHub. We're doing an SSH key audit."
[12:41]
CDotMichaelDaum: raise a feature request, and we can come back to it [12:49]
AlexisHazellpharvey: You didn't hear about the GitHub+RoR exploit? [12:50]
CDotpharvey: they only just contacted you? that exploit was weeks ago [12:50]
pharveyYeah, I know...
pharvey assumed he simply hadn't been flagged as needing audit
[12:50]
CDotmaybe; I'm in several RoR projects, and they contacted me really fast :-) [12:51]
BabarBabar got that email last week
and accepted all the foswiki and my own keys
[12:52]
pharveythe whole thing was a little farcical [12:52]
CDotpharvey: thanks for pointing that out; I guess it's related to the site skin
weird; natedit is deffo naffed up on f.o, but is fine in a local checkout :-(
t.f.o
[12:55]
pharveyWeird; apparently I've been pulling using git://. So I guess my key never got exchanged (or rejected) until now.
And I guess I should read my E-mail sometimes.
regarding natedit, I'd try to clear browser cache, but I'm on 1997 internet atm :(
[12:57]
CDotpharvey: clearing browser cache won't help; it's snafu [13:00]
pharveysigh. And gnome3 gives me a sudo dialogue every time my DHCP lease to my phone expires. [13:01]
CDotbuggerit; NatEditPlugin.pm doesn't compile [13:03]
MichaelDaumMichaelDaum changing locations...back l8tr [13:12]
HenroRitchieHi - anybode familiar with TRAC? [13:14]
pharveyI use it? Does that count? :) [13:15]
GithubBot[foswiki] foswiki pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/VJOONQ
[foswiki/master] Item11648: correct compile error - CrawfordCurrie
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HenroRitchieyes it does - the company I work for are in great need of a wiki site - so I proposed that we use foswiki - they agreed. Now two weeks later my boss figured out that our online repository also hosts a wiki site, namely TRAC. Now he wants to move from forswiki to TRAC. I am busy researching the differences and the advantages/disadvantages - but I am looking for a better opinion [13:18]
CDotI suspect it's something to do with the JQuery plugin version; but without MichaelDaum I can't be user
^user^sure
[13:23]
SvenDowideittrac's a pretty simplistic and (horrid) wiki
in svn (i'm not sure i've ported it yet)
I wrote both a usermapper that uses the trac database for users
and a trac skin that mimics twiki's
plus some other minor integrations
but largely, the wiki funcionality in trac is simple docco only
whereas foswiki can implement pretty much all of trac, other than the direct view of your source
i did start a plugin once to add source view to foswiki, but that was based on mirroring the source changes into the wiki
[13:24]
HenroRitchieyes - and what I can see is that the trac we have available is not customizable and the plugins, customization is very limited [13:28]
SvenDowideitit is 'interesting'
in that customising trac means coding python bits
even building a trac skin to look like twiki involved some python iirc
[13:28]
HenroRitchieyep - but I am why more familiar in customizing fwiki [13:29]
SvenDowideitas far as functionality goes, foswiki is a data wiki platform [13:29]
HenroRitchieI need to motivate why we need to stay with foswiki - and you comments helps a lot
@pharvey - what are you using trac for?
[13:29]
SvenDowideittrac is a project src mgmt tool with prose wiki stuff
we use it here
trac.foswiki.org
to view our svn repo
[13:30]
HenroRitchieok - makes sense if it only is used to track svn and code changes [13:31]
SvenDowideitish - its not actually very good at that either [13:32]
HenroRitchie:)
yet foswiki uses it
[13:33]
SvenDowideityeah - we picked it in 2004 or so
and well, havn't replaced it
though i don't go there anymore as git does it all
mmm, other than our auto linking to changesets in tasks
which we can wire up to some git UI - if we were, um, bored :)
[13:33]
HenroRitchie:) [13:35]
SvenDowideitbasically, the answer to trac vs foswiki is - what are you trying to solve with a wiki
if you want to edit a few pages once every blue moon, then trac is good enough
[13:35]
pharveyHenroRitchie: I use trac here at trac.foswiki.org, for viewing changes/files, and I used it in a previous job for the same thing where we used mediawiki for documentation, and before that we used TikiWiki [13:37]
SvenDowideitSvenDowideit goes to bed :) laters all, have a good one [13:38]
flexibeastSvenDowideit: Later! [13:38]
pharveyHenroRitchie: trac didn't have the features we wanted, it's really only useful for very basic documentation; having said that, if that's all you need, and minimizing the quantity of 'stuff' to maintain is important, then using trac has merit
pharvey wishes github's diffs had infra-line diffing like trac does
HenroRitchie: in terms of important features, it's the workflow/project-tracking widgets & dashboards that I'd miss from Foswiki, other than customization/templates/simple parameterized includes, also access controls
[13:38]
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HenroRitchieok bullet doged
dogged - we will be using both - trac online for documentation on the code side
foswiki for general use in the office and tracking the hardware and support calls
[14:07]
and the thing that saved foswiki was the nice wysiwig editor interface [14:20]
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***ChanServ sets mode: +o MichaelDaum [14:52]
andreliMichaelDaum: Have you time to share some toughs on SolrPlugin
We ran into some issues with the indexer
[14:57]
MichaelDaumHi andreli
not really but yes go ahead
[14:57]
FlorianPMichaelDaum: Is it possible to look into the index of solr ? (we talked last week because of hits that should not be shown) [14:58]
MichaelDaumFlorianP, yes partially. Some fields are not stored, only indexed. [14:59]
FlorianPMichaelDaum: And how can i do that? [14:59]
MichaelDaumgo to <foswiki-dir>/bin. then do ./rest /SolrPlugin/search q="foobar" [14:59]
FlorianPthx i will try [15:00]
MichaelDaumin case you are using VirtualHostingContrib, use cd <foswiki-dir>/tools; ./virtualhosts-solrsearch host=mydomain.com q="foobar" [15:01]
andreliWhen indexing, the indexer iterates through all users when ever the indexer sees an ALLOW|DENY
Now, having 2400+ users and Webs with thousand topics, all containing ALLOWTOPICVIEW, full indexing takes hours, soon the weekend will not be long enough
And with the early binding, we need regular full index, otherwise new user wont see much.
[15:03]
MichaelDaumis iwatch an option on AFS? [15:04]
andreliMichaelDaum: Would it be possible to optimize indexing, or even the index? [15:04]
MichaelDaumMichaelDaum seen OliverSchaub's task item... any chance to outline the kind of acls that you have: are they all different / similar / same? why are there so many on topic level?
also: how many users are there in the acls for this 2.4k web?
...replace 2.4k web with "large"
you still there andreli?
[15:05]
andreliMichaelDaum: Our wiki grants anonymous access and knows users that are not member of the institute.
So, our wiki knows 2400+ users. The group, containing all institute member contains ~2000 users.
[15:10]
FlorianPMichaelDaum: Can i check or see the field "access_granted" of a topic in the index? (I installed the latest solrplugin and now just 807 topic of one web could be seen incorrectly) [15:12]
MichaelDaumFlorianP, access_granted isn't a stored field. so it won't show up in solrsearch, even when accessing the index directly. [15:13]
FlorianPMichaelDaum: So what can i do to locate what is going wrong? [15:14]
andreliMichaelDaum: Now, we started to run a issue tracker in Wiki granting mail in capability. In order to increase acceptance, a topic is initially viewable only by the person submitting and support personell. This issue web is now up to 1000 topics. Rapidly increasing. [15:14]
MichaelDaumandreli, I see a pontential way to optimize the indexer. But to make sure we are on the right track I really need a way to mock up the ACL landscape that you have.
OliverSchaub, what was the bug item where you reported this? can't find it again.
worst case is: all topics have a different acl profile.
best case: all acls are stored in WebPreferences
mean case: acl profiles are the same for a bunch of topics, so that they don't need to be sampled each
[15:17]
andrelihttp://foswiki.org/Support/Question1060 [15:19]
MichaelDaumumof
collecting everything in http://foswiki.org/Tasks/Item11664
please add a few more details there, andreli. thanks.
FlorianP, I really can't say. Your case sounds so strange that I must assume something more fundamental is broken.
[15:19]
andreliMichaelDaum: What you call 'worst case' is what our users feel comfortable with and use increasingly. Therefore we are definitely moving towards 'worst case', and this with full intetion - so to say. [15:23]
MichaelDaumandreli, understood.
take "worst case" more in terms of technology, not against your users being "worst case" ;)
[15:23]
andreliyeah, I understood. Why did you ask about iwatch? [15:25]
FlorianPMichaelDaum: yes its very strange, but i will continue looking for the reason. Maybe i will be lucky. Anyway thx for your help [15:26]
MichaelDaumin your specific use case, acls can be described informally with: "this topic is view restricted to everybody _except_ one user being responsible for it" ...sort of ?
andreli, because I recommend using iwatch in the SolrPlugin docu.
for realtime indexing
active polling for changes every 5 minutes is a waste of resources as you probably are aware of I guess
when iwatch is not an option due to iwatch not applying to your situation having files on an AFS, then the only other option is to implement the indexer as a daemon that gets notified by an afterSaveHandler
... which is not there atm
[15:26]
andreliThe polling is not really the problem.
Indexing takes to long, and with the early binding we need full index on a regular basis.
[15:31]
MichaelDaumhow often do you reindex fully? [15:32]
andrelionce a week
btw: iwatch seem to work on AFS
update on iwatch on AFS: probably not after all
[15:32]
MichaelDaumhow long does a full reindex take?
how long does it take to index one topic part of a delta index job?
[15:40]
the time reported at http://foswiki.org/Support/Question1060 seems incredibly high: 2-3 minutes to process a single topic? [15:46]
andreliI can confirm the 2-3 minutes.
We NYT-Profiled indexinx 7 topics, took 400 seconds and created a 120MByte report. Some insane number of calls to isGroup(3M), hasNext (6M) and next(3M)
[15:50]
MichaelDaumplease report to http://foswiki.org/Tasks/Item11664
so we can comm this asyncly
[15:50]
andreliok, will do. [15:51]
MichaelDaumMichaelDaum added two more questions wrt your users and groups
could be foswiki's acl checker hasn't been hammered that hard before.
[15:54]
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CDot, please leave the natedit templates as they are right now. I don't have time to fix them again and again. [16:28]
GithubBot[foswiki] foswiki pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/usPpug
[foswiki/master] Item11648: cleaning up template mess - MichaelDaum
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FoswikiBothttp://foswiki.org/Tasks/Item11648 [ Item11648: Add NatEditPlugin to core Add NatEditPlugin to core Add NatEditPlugin to the core ] [16:32]
Paul3Hi all. I just upgraded a foswiki installation with apt-get on an ubuntu box with the fosiki repository. I logged in, and a bunch of my webs are missing. I checked the filesystem and they're where I left them (whew!). I'm also getting an error when I click on configure when I'm logged in as the admin user.
The error is Use of uninitialized value in string eq at /var/lib/foswiki/lib/Foswiki/Configure/Checkers/SMTP/Username.pm line 26.
I'm not sure if that's in a standard location; this was an ancient Twiki install.
It's very possible, I'd imagine, that this is a permissioning issue, or something that I've forgotten about needs to be hooked up to something else that I've forgotten about. Any ideas, anyone?
Oh, and I see all the webs when I'm logged in as admin, so I know that I need to fix access controls again.
[16:39]
OK, so apparently I'm an idiot. I just needed to reboot Apache. :) Nevermind.
Wait, I'm still getting that error in configure.
[16:53]
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Found the error in an old config file. All good. Afternoon all! [18:02]
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SvenDowideit sets mode: +oooo bgupta flexibeast gac410 julian_work
SvenDowideit sets mode: +ooo Lynnwood MartinCleaver terceiro
[23:15]
SvenDowideitmmm, sounds like i/we need to write a configure checker to detect old / odd cfg's
thats the third twiki->debian foswiki install thats been seen this week?
[23:16]
gac410We've added a few checks - Biggie is the missing OP_match operator [23:17]
SvenDowideiti didn't even know people could upgrade that way :/ [23:17]
gac410grumble grumble [23:17]
SvenDowideity, i'm thinking more specifically that twiki cfg's should just be detected, deleted and re-populated
SvenDowideit is making a 1.1.5-pre-rc2 usb stick today
assuming that i actually get to steal time from the girls
git on windows - yay
[23:18]
gac410unfortunately it would be quite a job to separate the configure UI piece of the value/settings code from the config parsing / checking. [23:19]
SvenDowideitmmm, do we need to?
i was thinking that in the initial load we add oddity detection, and if we note that its upgrade from 1.0, twiki or whatever, we don't load into cfg,
instead (ok, dreaming)
load into another space, then iterativly populate a new cfg with 'known bare minimum safe values
ie - url, path, enablement stuff
while ignoring things that might be hairy
or 'something'
:)
[23:19]
gac410non-sequitur ... thinking about what it would take to run config from the shell. The whole parsing values thing is tightly interwoven with the UI. [23:21]
SvenDowideitoh - y, totally
if it were easy, we'da done it
though it might be plausible to simplify the idea
cmdlineconfig --set Store=RcsWrap
[23:21]
gac410the good news - we are still getting migrations from (tm)wiki [23:23]
SvenDowideitmight return true if the checker says ok
cmdlineconfig --set Store=RcsWrapba
might just dump core
ie fail
y - from what i see, lots of companies have a 5-10 year upgrade cycle on this kind of tool
considering the upgrade i'm doing atm is from a 2004 pre-release version
frustratingly, i don't dislike using windows8 as a gui terminal
but the unreleased ie appears to break lots of little bits of jqueryplugin
cna't really expect anyone to fix it either - who knows what will change before release
[23:23]
gac410is firefox available? I just switched my android over to ff - seems to work quite well. [23:25]
SvenDowideityup
i installed... ff11
so i'm bleading all over on this box :)
[23:25]
gac410cool [23:25]
SvenDowideitif only psgi was further along
i'd love to use it for foswiki on a usb stick
run foswiki directly from the systray icon, rather than kicking off apache from there
[23:26]
gac410Do you have things you want to get checked into 115 before I build the RC1 (or Beta 2)? [23:28]
SvenDowideiti have to fix the $pager thing before the final release
but nothing i'm hoping to get done needs to hold up another rc
[23:28]
gac410Debating if I should do a quick private Beta2 this weekend, and then the Public RC1 on 3/20 [23:29]
SvenDowideitlist of ew's as long as my arm, but i'm not going to pretend that i will get them all done [23:29]
gac410or just wait to do RC1 on 3/20 and install that on f.o [23:29]
SvenDowideitupdating f.o is a very nice shakedown :)
20==tuesday?
[23:29]
gac410yes. [23:29]
SvenDowideitso basically - if you don't have anything more fun to do :)
SvenDowideit wonders why building private beta&upgrading f.o isn't a single button click-thing
>:}
[23:30]
gac410I use a modified Colas script. [23:31]
SvenDowideity, too much work i recon :) [23:32]
gac410And currently have to manually review each file that has been updated on the server.
If we could get the feedback mechanism going you've proposed, then the upgrade could need less checking.
[23:32]
SvenDowideityeah - maybe next week
delivery time for my client this week, and something tells me that the illness i've been putting off that the rest of the family's had all week will hit me after that
[23:32]
gac410I think I'll install what I have on the weekend as another private beta. I also want to install CDot's updated AWSPI and test out the "remove user" tool in a more live env.
My registration and Mapper changes scare me a bit.
[23:34]
SvenDowideitin that case installing on f.o will help you :) [23:34]
gac410yes. (I'll back up WikiUsers and .htpasswd ) :D [23:35]
SvenDowideitweeeee
what i do when i'm scared of a live change
[23:35]
gac410We also need to review http://foswiki.org/Tasks/TasksByRelease?release=1.1.5;sortcol=4;table=1;up=0#sorted_table
There are a number of fixes people *wanted* fixed in 1.1.5 that have not been worked on. So I need to defer them
[23:36]
SvenDowideitis make the foswiki into a local git repo
add the entire foswiki into it
upgrade
commit those changes
then let it run
lets me see what changed really fast
i tend to put the git repo one dir up from foswiki tho
so you can rm -r foswiki and then checkout
[23:36]
gac410Is that the method that pharvey documented in a best practices? [23:37]
SvenDowideitthat was kind of another reason i liked the idea of doing the non-developer changes stuff using git, but it realy is an extra layer of complexity
mmm, i dunno :)
he writes more than i can read
[23:37]
gac410:) [23:38]
SvenDowideiti think he uses it for direct mgmt, whereas this is an extra slice to backup and view changes to the full wiki
so i'd be tempted to use his submodules thing for doing upgrades and managing content
and then another git repo over the entire thing for backup and higher level view
course, i don't know what git does when you git add a .git repo
[23:38]
gac410I'm gradually coming to the conclusion that complexity often is the enemy of reliability. I'd run into net engineers who would design horribly complex networks, OSPF, BGP, with redundancy for the redundancy. And get lost trying to understand why it wouldn't converge. [23:40]
SvenDowideitSvenDowideit wonders if a mad person has made a gitfs - fuse or otherwise [23:40]
gac410Simple is good. [23:40]
SvenDowideitcomplexity _is_ the enemy of reliability
and of long term systems progress
SvenDowideit specialised in working on legacy codebases - c code in production for over 20 years is (for me) the most fun to re-architect
[23:40]
gac410http://sourceforge.net/apps/mediawiki/fuse/index.php?title=VersioningFileSystems [23:42]
SvenDowideitSvenDowideit should not click, but does anyway :) [23:42]
gac410(it lists a gitfs but looks like it's read only [23:43]
SvenDowideitand dead
link's gone
[23:43]
gac410whoops [23:43]
SvenDowideit:)
i updated my hiddenpatternsidebarskin last night
now the action bar is pinned to the bottom of the browser, and the top bar is smaller
so the topic content becomes the fosu
focus
its surprisingly nice to use - hit edit from wherever you are scrolled in the topic
[23:43]
gac410cool [23:46]
SvenDowideitguess i should pkg it up - cos on my 1024x768 screen, pattern skin uses too many pixels otherwise
worst thing about updating the windows installer&usb - it takes hours to get an env setup to do it
takes about an hour just to git clone the source
[23:46]

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